Tuesday 27 March 2012

Killer Arguments Against LVT, Not (206)

From Yahoo! Answers:

Would a federal land value tax be fairer than the current federal income tax? I was reading an article on Georgism,a 19th century idea of American philosopher Henry George, and was wondering what others thought of this.

The first comment is an onslaught of Home-Owner-Ism:

The first rule of taxation is this: Make sure that the taxpayer can AFFORD to pay the tax. The ONLY tax that universally adheres to that critical rule is a properly implemented graduated income tax.

Nope. The first rules of taxation are 'make sure the tax does not damage the economy' and 'make sure that there is some moral justification for the tax, ideally levying user charges for value received by the payer from society in general'.

Property taxes only have a loose association to ability to pay, assuming that you buy within your affordability range while you are earning and values don't go haywire and surge past wage growth.

In the real world, people do buy 'within their affordability range', with or without LVT. And in the real world, prices are set by first time buyers/tenants, so if they can afford it, so can older people who've climbed the job ladder a bit and who don't have young children to look after. Whether you commit to paying a big mortgage for 25 years or a smaller mortgage and LVT (but no income tax) is neither here nor. People will quite simply choose to live in a home (or carry out their business from premises) on which they can afford the tax (by definition), so the whole 'ability to pay' issue sorts itself out.

Once you retire on a fixed income, you are basically screwed as taxes will fairly quickly surge past your ability to pay.

If 'ability to pay' is all that matters, a mugger could argue in court that as he only took spare cash which his victims had in their pockets, it was well within their 'ability to pay' and therefore caused them no harm. The 'fixed incomes' to which he alludes are of course taxpayer-funded pensions, there's no natural reason why these can't be funded out of LVT or out of savings (people will pay less tax during their working lives). Failing that, the retired can ask their heirs to pay. They want to inherit the house, don't they? If the parent wants to 'pass on wealth to his children' then all he has to do is trade down; if he doesn't want to trade down and his children aren't interested in inheriting, then the problem solves itself.

There then follows a long rant about the difficulties with valuations, all of which are nonsense, and he rounds off with this:

19th century ideas won't necessarily work in the 21st century.

Yes they will. It's the same land as we had in the 19th century, site rental values are being generated in exactly the same way as ever, (the extremes are in fact even greater the more sophisticated the economy is), and this is throwing up exactly the same problems as ever (but worse).

Henry George published Progess and Poverty in the late 19th century against the backdrop of a land price bubble and the ensuing financial crisis, and this 18-year boom-bust pattern was already well established in the USA. The book could easily be re-written against the background of the 'financial crisis' which started in 2007.

13 comments:

Lola said...

QAnd the boom / bust then had its roots in the same bad money as the 2000 / 2008 boom /bust...

LVT and sound money.

Mark Wadsworth said...

L, LVT is sound money. One of the many arguments for it (and the main argument in his book) is to stamp out credit bubbles.

Sarton Bander said...

Money = LVT vouchers = Money.

Which leads me to wonder why Greece just doesn't turn it's bonds into "1 Euro Greek tax" payments.

Lola said...

Well, strictly 'they' could still have a go at unsound money - but it would be a shed load more difficult, but 'they'd' still try...

Mark Wadsworth said...

SB, yup. The official unit of currency for transactions between private individuals and government will be, by definition, one unit of LVT, which coicidentally will be worth +/- £1 GBP.

L, yes, a government can still collect less than full LVT and/or spend more than it collects, but I think that the upper limits of the acceptable national debt would be reached much more quickly. The banks would struggle to split the zero though.

Snarfangel said...

Why oh why couldn't the original Yahoo question still be open. It would have been fun to dismantle Bash Limpbutt's Oozing Cyst©'s answer.

Bayard said...

It might be worth pointing out to those who harp on about "ability to pay", that income tax takes no account of your ability to pay. If you spend the money you earn as soon as you get it, you won't have anything to pay your tax bill when it hits the doormat. All you need with LVT is some sort of arrangement to deal with cashflow problems and the "sudden loss of income" scenario is sorted, leaving only the PWB.
Another thing worth pointing out to these idiots is that we are talking about a tiny tiny minority - people who are not on PAYE , who don't have a mortgage, who are not pensioners or tenants and whose LVT bill would be substantially greater than their current income tax bill (which they must be able to afford or they would have sold their house or gone to gaol already). Do I detect a second wave human shield, ready to be pushed into the breach as the PW's fall?

Mark Wadsworth said...

Snarf, there wouldn't be much point. They've got in first with their quick lies and that usually trumps the slow truth.

B, Sobers has already lined up the second wave of human shields - people who lose their jobs. Quite how they are supposed to pay their mortgages or rent under current rules, I do not know.

And why the Homeys love slagging off the unemployed generally but have such huge sympathy with unemployed people who've overstretched themselves on mortgages was unexplained at time of going to press. They've never let a total contradiction stop them before though, and they aren't going to stop now, i.e.

Cap on housing benefit = good
Reductions in Support for Mortgage Interest = bad

Sarton Bander said...

Gosh, I wonder how this happened?

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/guest-post-chart-decade

Sarton Bander said...

Income tax destroys comparative advantage and thus employment.

So it's "afforded" by denying others a market wage.

Bayard said...

"Quite how they are supposed to pay their mortgages or rent under current rules, I do not know"

No. no, these people aren't tenants, they are HO aristos, the Ones Who Own Their Homes Outright, the status to which all HOs aspire.

"And why the Homeys love slagging off the unemployed generally but have such huge sympathy with unemployed people who've overstretched themselves on mortgages was unexplained at time of going to press."

That's an easy one to explain: the majority of the unemployed do not own their home and are therefore lower-class scum who sponge off the state. The ones that do own their own homes are decent chaps who should be given a helping hand when they are down.

Mark Wadsworth said...

SB, good link, I've sent you a blog invite, do a post on it. As to the unemployed, that's their own fault for sponging off the welfare state. It has nothing, repeat nothing, to do with NIMBYism, rent seeking and the tax system.

B, yes, that is the Homey view of things. Saving up for a rainy day and taking on a mortgage BOTH count as prudent behaviour which the government should encourage.

Bayard said...

I have a more C19th view of things: getting into debt, in any way, shape or form, is a Bad Thing.