Once more unto the breach, dear friends:
Pier Carlo Padoan, chief economist of the OECD, says George’s Osborne’s cuts are “appropriate,” but the Chancellor must do much more to stimulate Britain’s economy. Mr Padoan argues he should... abolish council tax and stamp duty in favour of “a property tax based on market values.” Instead of HM Revenue & Customs taxing property via stamp duty land tax (SDLT); inheritance tax (IHT); and – in the case of second homes – capital gains tax (CGT); annual liabilities would be calculated, based on estimations of house prices.
Leading accountants described the proposals, to be set out in the August edition of Prospect magazine, as “revolutionary” (1) and predicted they would hit house prices and prove extremely unpopular. Pensioners (2) and even tenants (3) would suffer higher costs under a property tax, accountants predict. (4) But Mr Padoan argues that his reforms would “dampen fluctuations in house prices” and are essential to put the British economy on a more stable long-term footing...
Helen Demuth, tax director at accountants Smith & Williamson, said: “Currently occupiers pay council tax but the owners would presumably pay property value tax. They would no doubt pass this on by higher rents which might, or might not, be equivalent to the tenants’ savings on council tax. (5)"
1) No it's not revolutionary at all, this used to be how the UK government raised the bulk of its revenues, this is what Adam Smith said was the most easily justifiable and least damaging tax and we still have it in the UK in the form of Business Rates and Domestic Rates in Northern Ireland.
2) Poor Widow Bogey. Do these people not realise that we have a cunning system in place to enable older people who can't earn a living to be able to afford food, clothing and so on? It's called 'old age pensions'. If we had LVT, would it be so difficult to think up a system of exemptions, discounts, deferments or simply a higher state pension (in which case pensioners in large, expensive houses would end up subsidising pensioners in smaller, cheaper housing)?
3) They are playing the Double Bogey - you always have to either contrast people at opposite ends of the scale - the Undeserving Rich in a small house with the Deserving Pensioner in a large one; or choose people at opposite ends of the scale, an old non-working person who is an owner-occupier and a young working person who is a tenant and then claim that the tax would have an equal effect on both, even when quite clearly it wouldn't; that's like claiming that claiming that a tax on bacon would hit Christians and Jewish people alike.
4) I work among accountants, and they are all too close to the coal face to see the bigger picture.
a) Let's imagine we scrapped the TV licence of £146 per year and just increased every Council Tax bill by £146 (or whatever slightly smaller figure would be required - taking into account that a lot of people don't pay it). Would that hit tenants? Nope.
b) Let's imagine that they scrapped Council Tax Benefit (CTB), which is largely paid to people in Band A and Band B homes and simply reduced Council Tax in those bands by a quarter so that those who previously benefited from CTB pay more and those who didn't pay less. Would that affect rent levels? Nope.
c) Let's imagine they allowed people to pay SDLT in small annual instalments spread over an average ownership period of twenty years, so instead of paying between 1% and 5% when you buy a home, you pay between 0.05% and 0.1% of the price each year. Would that mean that landlords had to put up rents? Nope.
d) You can insure against Inheritance Tax liabilities. Insurance companies just work out how much and when the bill will be and set the premium such that the net present value of the recurring payments is roughly the same as the net present value of the bill. Would a landlord who has taken out such insurance have to charge a higher rent? Nope, that was his decision - if he thought it was going to be more expensive, he wouldn't do it.
e) You can't insure against Capital Gains Tax liabilities because they are too hard to predict, but you could 'self-insure' by putting aside a small percentage of the value of the house, so that when you come to sell it, you know you'll have enough to pay the tax so that you can keep the entire selling price. Would a cautious landlord who saves up for the tax charge more than one who doesn't? Nope.
f) Finally, let's imagine that landlords pay the Council Tax instead of the tenant as a matter of administrative convenience. Would this make tenants better or worse off? Nope.
We could put a) to f) on a statutory basis and adjust the Council Tax bill up or down accordingly. Would these be regressive or progressive to house prices?
a) would be regressive, the Council Tax bill on small flats would go up by 20% and on expensive houses it would go up by 5%,
b) would be neither nor.
c) and d) would be progressive, They would add a much larger annual amount to the Council Tax bill of more expensive homes.
e) Would be mildly progressive. On rented homes it would be neither nor, but on second homes, it would tend to hit wealthier people who own them.
f) Landlords would put up the rent by the amount of the Council Tax which they now pay, and the tenant can afford to pay the extra rent out of the money he saves (this would improve collection rates from 97% to 99% and reduce collection costs, hooray).
By the time you've ground the numbers, you'd realise that the regressivity and progressivity (if those are actual words) would cancel out and that the new Council Tax merged with TV licence, CTB, SDLT, IHT and CGT works out at a pretty flat percentage of the potential selling price of each home. None of these individual steps would affect rents (and hence tenants) in isolation, and there is absolutely no reason to assume that they would affect rents (and hence tenants) when taken together. Worst case, they act like a higher interest rate - does anybody seriously claim that landlords increase rents when interest rates go up and drop them when interest rates go down?
5) Aha! At least this woman is clued up enough to realise that for some houses the annual bill will increases slightly and for others it will fall (the lifetime bill won't change much at all, that's the whole point). A flat tax which merges Council Tax, TV licence, SDLT, IHT and CGT (and a few other bits and pieces) would actually work out lower for Band A and B homes than Council Tax at present, so if she is prepared to argue (incorrectly) that tenants of larger houses (who by definition are wealthier) would end up worse off (which they wouldn't), then she must also be arguing that lower paid tenants who are not currently claiming CTB would be better off (which they wouldn't be either, to be fair).
So don't play the "We have to look after wealthy people [landowners] or else the poor people [tenants] will end up paying more" card with me, because even by their own flawed logic, lower paid tenants would end up better off (a worthy aim in itself, even though this measure, taken in isolation, wouldn't achieve it).
So there.
Oh Dear
1 hour ago
17 comments:
I agree. I know these things are not easily quantified, but there are benefits to simplification and transparency.
People will adapt and the key point is they will adapt with the added benefit of greater transparency. There is no way this can’t be a social bonus.
"Social bonus" says it all - theft.
Anon - does the word 'non-sequitur' mean anything to you?
Funny. Last time my employer gave me a bonus, it wasn't delivered in a big bag marked "SWAG". Maybe they didn't get the message.
mark, may I suggest that you write of your rants - oops, persuasion pieces - on the subject specifically of the incidence of various taxes. You know the sort of thing - company taxes are really levied on the customers, or on the workers, or on household pets, whatever - whereas LVT hits cuddly toys.
Mark apart from intellectual property, why is land any different from any other commodity? All commodities come from the Earth.Do you think you are a touch obsessive about home ownership? You and Robin Smith are too single minded.
Faggle - Nope. "social bonus" says it all - theft.
AKH, ta for back up.
Anon, all right then, call it "Laffer effect" or "economic bonus". If we replaced all taxes with LVT then some people, who work hard or run a successful business would become considerably better off than now. Why do you want to deprive these people of what they could have?
You're the thief round these parts, not me.
D, why cuddly toys?
PW, when you say 'commodity', do you mean coal, iron, minerals, that sort of thing? Those things are 'land'.
As to 'home ownership', I'm all in favour it!! When have I ever denied that most people in the UK aspire to be owner-occupiers? Have I not always accepted owner-occupation as A Good Thing? Have I not always said "Let's allow more houses to be built so that more people can own one"?
More to the point, under an LVT/Citizen's Income system, it would be much easier/cheaper to become an owner-occupier than it is at present. And even if you are not legally a homeowner, being entitled to the Citizen's Income makes everybody, in economic terms, a landlord instead of being a tenant.
"D, why cuddly toys?" It's an invitation to you to explain whom it really hits - otherwise I'll just assume that it's an equivalent to a tax on cuddly toys. Mind you, I'd approve of a tax on cuddly toys.
D, LVT doesn't "hit" anybody in particular. It "hits" people who choose to pay it, in the same way as tobacco duty "hits" people who choose to smoke non-smuggled cigarettes, or fuel duty "hits" people who choose to drive a large car or drive a lot.
No household would be forced to live in a house where the LVT bill is more than the household's Citizen's Income entitlement, so it would be like every citizen being given £500 in vouchers to spend on cigarettes each year, some don't smoke at all and keep the £500, others smoke two packs a day of UK-taxed fags and spend considerably more than £500 a year.
It may well be, once the dust has settled, that each individual ends up paying exactly the same in LVT as he previously did in income tax, VAT etc., but the difference will be that those people previously paying the most in income tax, VAT end up living in larger and nicer houses than before, and those people with a lot of land 'wealth' and little or no earned income end up living in smaller houses than before. I'm really not too fussed quite how it all works out.
It's always puzzled me why landlords don't pay council tax and charge a larger rent to cover it, although I was told that HMRC don't allow it to be offset against your taxable income, which seems a bit daft.
B, me too, it would be far better all round if the landlord/freeholder paid it and clawed it back as far as possible.
But there is a misunderstanding here - if the landlord pays the council tax he CAN deduct it from gross rental income for income tax purposes - but he MUST deduct it from gross rental income before he calculates the ten per cent wear and tear allowance.
It's funny what people get worked up about. Me, it's the slur on accountants. They are broadminded, big picture kind of people and that's an end of it.
Peter W, there's a big difference between a commodity like chromium (which once it's gone, it's gone) and a commodity like pork (which is basically created afresh every year).
Most commodities come from the Earth, but not all, and some are continuously renewed (wind power, water), some are renewed on an annual basis (agricultural commodities), and some only on a geological time scale (oil, helium). A very select few have to be manufactured (technetium, plutonium).
Some require a lot of work to extract or make (aluminium, pork bellies, tritium) and some next to none (compressed air, bottled water, the location value of land).
All this variation creates a great difference in present and future scarcity of commodities and in the extent to which they can be said to be resources or products.
All these differences mean that some commodities are better suited for taxation purposes than others. As it happens land is one of the most suitable commodities for taxation for all sorts of reasons which Mark has discussed previously. Take a look at the blog archives marked with the "Land Value Tax" tag to learn more.
As to why MW, RS and others such as myself are so single-minded about it? Well, once you really look into the economics of taxes, it becomes obvious that some are far worse for the economy and the people in it than others. As it happens LVT is the best. And it's not just a little bit better: it's way better. So it's only natural that people who have discovered this should try and let others know about it. That's the only way to get it adopted, so that we can all enjoy the benefits.
D, that's a good way of looking at it.
Or from my point of view, there is a sliding scale between
a) Things which are just there, not created by any particular individual (such as minerals or location values - one created by nature and the other by the community). You can tax these as much as you like, they won't go away and don't really belong to any individual and no individual created them.
b) Transactions between persons, which are clearly down to individual effort (or small identifiable groups of individuals) and which are discouraged if taxed, which is why VAT and NIC are even worse taxes than income tax.
So if a government charges companies money for the rights to mine gold in an area, that is fair game; but levying VAT on the sale of gold jewellery or coins most certainly is not.
Landlords don't pay council tax because sometimes their tenants don't have to. Students, council tax benefits, subletting, if the tenants pay rent but don't actually live there for some time, etc.
Anon, fair point, but these exemptions only make sense in a Home-Owner-Ist world. In the real world, the landlord simply increases the rent by the amount of the council tax saving.
So if we want to subsidise students or low income people, better to give them slightly higher non-earmarked cash-benefits than an ear-marked benefit (council tax and especially housing benefit) which goes straight into landlords' pockets.
And if we don't want to subsidise them, then they certainly don't need CTB and HB.
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