Accountancy Age did a brief write up of the Telegraph's brief write up of the OECD's tax simplification proposals.
The comments open with this:
With the majority of the more expensive properties in the UK being owned by people who have or are about to retire(1) (assuming any of us ever do retire that is) a tax based on the market value of a property would hit anyone on a fixed or low income very badly.(2)
Also, when interest rates go up what about people overstretched when times were good and who now find themselves in a negative equity situation.(3) They won’t be able to sell (4) and will probably only just manage to afford the mortgage repayments, how would they cope with a large increase in any form of tax?(5) Would they just hand the keys back before the house was repossessed? With the housing market barely limping along, this idea would probably finish it off.(6)
1) At least she brazenly admits that the Baby Boomers have bagged all the housing for themselves and have no intention of letting young people 'get on the ladder' without paying a massive ransom first.
2) The first paragraph is fairly plain vanilla version of the Poor Widow Bogey (concepts like "Give them exemptions or discounts or just increase the State Pension" are far too complicated for their tiny little minds). The PWB is fundamentally a huge great lie of course: they always wail about the tax hitting 'people' but it's not a tax on people it's a tax on land values, so if you don't want to pay it, you'll just have to live somewhere smaller or cheaper (most people would be able to find something within a few hundred yards of where they live now) etc.
3) The Homeys like to show how kind and caring they are, so they choose diametrically opposed examples [old, low income, expensive house, no mortgage] with [young, high income, smaller house, big mortgage] to illustrate that such a tax would hurt both, which is nonsense, it's like smokers whining that tobacco duty hits non-smokers as well. Crocodile tears.
4) Who says? You can sell anything if the price is right.
5) A sensible borrower budgets for the fact that interest rates might increase by a few per cent in the first few years of the loan. The taxes which the OECD proposed to replace (Council Tax, SDLT, IHT, CGT) would average out at about one per cent of the value of every house, so for a sensible borrower this is no big deal - it's like the interest rate on the mortgage going up by one per cent but OTOH, he no longer has to pay Council Tax. So that's more crocodile tears. And if young people with a big mortgage and possibly young kids can afford the tax, why on earth can't older people - with no mortgage and the kids our of the house - afford it?
6) Does this woman have any idea what 'a market' is? It's where people come together to buy and sell things. Housing transactions have more or less ground to a halt, because what sellers think their houses are worth is about a third more than what FTBs can realistically afford. This is not 'a market'. Turning up the heat a little bit on the smug and complacent Homeys might just give them the nudge to drop their price and sell; the FTB can by definition afford the tax as he will adjust the price he pays up or down accordingly. So more transactions and a more active market, everybody ends up paying as much or as little tax as he wants. The tax would be good for the market.
Bluesky thinking?
48 minutes ago
8 comments:
Of all the KAALVTNs, that's got to be the dimmest yet. Mark, shouldn't you be regaling the readers of AccountancyAge with your reply to this intellectually challenged commentator?
B, good idea. You'd expect an accoutancy magazine to have some understanding of the maths involved.
Many baby-boomers simply bought houses on parental advice (the wartime generation) and saw their mortgage payments eroded by rampant inflation. They were lucky.
That wasn't my personal experience - we always bought at the wrong time because of moving jobs.
In my experience baby-boomers tend to think high house prices are some kind of natural economic law because they have never been presented with alternative views.
I have raised the issue of house prices with those baby-boomers I know personally since reading your blog, just out of interest.
AKH, I know the conversation, it goes like this:
Me: It's a bit of an outrage, prices being so high.
Homey: Well, Britain is a crowded island, there's a shortage of building land, food security and all that.
Me: Not true - only six per cent of the UK is urban, the rest is farms and forests.
Homey: So you want us to concrete over the whole country?
Me: No, we can either give today's young families the same opportunities you had and build a bit more, maybe extend urban areas to seven per cent, or we can shuffle together a bit and use existing housing more efficiently.
Homey: I've paid for my home out of my own taxed income, I've paid taxes all my life, I deserve my pension and I don't see why we should make it even easier for the lazy so and so's of today, can't they just save up a deposit and buy a house like we did when we were young? Why should I share my housing with them?
Me: OK, let's build more housing then.
Homey: But then we'll all starve to death.
Me: No we won't, we could easily be self-sufficient in food if we used GM, greenhouses, factory farming etc.
Homey: So basically you want to completely destroy our way of life? Do you not value nature at all? Are you some sort of Communist?
Me: Not at all, I believe in free markets, if there's demand for housing let's build it.
Homey: I tell you what the problem is - overpopulation. It's all the immigrants coming over and all the feckless single mums, if it wasn't for them house prices wouldn't have gone up.
Me: Right, let's imagine that all those immigrants and all those single mums went out, got themselves a job and wanted to buy a house, what do you think would happen to house prices? They'd go up even further wouldn't they? Unless supply expands to meet demand, young people are just running to keep still aren't they?
Homey: Don't you come at me with your smart arse economic theory, none of that counts in real life, look at the mess which economics got us into - the bloody banks won't even lend my daughter the money she needs to buy a flat? She's got a good job and everything, but flats round here cost over a hundred thousand pounds. Tiny little pokey thing too. It's the greedy developers building rabbit hutches who are to blame, in my day they built proper houses, and they only cost a couple of thousand.
Me: Funny - I mentioned that a few minutes ago, why don't we just get on with building proper houses again instead of pokey flats, and you said that there was no room any more.
Homey: If there weren't so many immigrants then my daughter would be able to afford a proper house.
And so on ad infinitum.
"Homey: I tell you what the problem is - overpopulation. It's all the immigrants coming over and all the feckless single mums, if it wasn't for them house prices wouldn't have gone up."
It's not overpopulation, it's underoccupancy: one factor driving up the demand for housing that is seldom mentioned is lower occupancy rates. When I was a kid I shared a bedroom with my brother. When my mother was a young working adult, she shared a bedroom with a (female) friend. Nowadays no-one shares; a family of five (mum, dad, three kids) expects to be able to live in a four bedroom house, so that each kid has their own room. When those kids grow up, they go off to find a home of their own as soon as they get work and mum and dad remain in the four bedroom house. Because the kids see their new home as an investment, they don't want to share, they want their own place, so more and more smaller and smaller homes are being built and more and more houses that were built to house a family are housing a single person instead.
Homey: Don't you talk to me about underr-occupation, do you not know what goes on in council estates? Some of those women have five or six children and squash them all to one room. And those Eastern Europeans take turns in bunk beds, I've seen it on the news. Is that how you want everybody to live? Cover the countryside with rabbit hutches and then make us live ten people to one house?
Me: That's would be mathematically impossible, to increase the number of houses and increase the average number of occupants.
Homey: Your lot would just invite loads more immigrants in to fill them.
Mark, have you written anything on splitting lots? By that I mean tearing down houses (that poor widows live in) and rebuilding two or more smaller homes on the same site?
Anon, yes of course. But it's too late for me to Google my own 'blog, it's all in there in the Killer Arguments (KLN) series.
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