I see that the Homeys have got it in for Bob Crow. From The Metro:
The militant head of the Rail, Maritime and Transport union (RMT) is believed to pay half the market rate for his taxpayer-subsidised house (1) despite being paid £145,000 a year. (2)
Mr Crow rents the three-bedroom home for an estimated £150 a week while estate agents say it would cost £300 a week in the private sector. The union firebrand has benefited from a loophole in housing rules (3) which do not consider an occupant’s income once the family has a tenancy.
Mr Crow and his partner Nicola Hoarau have lived in the north-east London property since 2001 and saved an estimated £78,000 on renting costs. (4)
Housing minister Grant Shapps said: ‘With nearly 5million vulnerable people languishing on housing waiting lists, I would have thought a highly paid union baron would feel somewhat awkward taking advantage of publicly subsidised housing.’ (5)
The RMT said Mr Crow ‘turned down the opportunity to buy his council house at a substantial discount because he believes social housing stock should be available for future generations. (6) Bob Crow makes no apology for living in social housing,’ the union said.
1) It's not taxpayer-subsidised at all. Don't tell me that the cash cost to the council of maintaining that house is anywhere near £7,800 a year. And if you want to argue that rent foregone is a 'cost' to the taxpayer, then so is the fact that owner-occupation is not subject to taxation (Schedule A or Land Value Tax).
2) Yes, he is a militant, what relevant does that have (and no, I like neither his politics nor the strikes he calls once or twice a year), and he appears to be vastly overpaid, but that's up to RMT members - and on that sort of salary, he must be chipping in about £70,000 a year in PAYE, NIC and VAT, so he's more than paying for any subsidies he does get (to the extent he gets any, which he doesn't) and a damn' sight more than most people.
3) It's not a loophole, FFS. Those Are The Rules. If the social rent is set at £150 then it's £150 regardless of income - if you earn very little or nothing, then they don't reduce the rent, what they do is allow you to claim Housing Benefit. Could we arrange this better? Yes of course: to the extent that social housing is undersupplied, we could charge the lower of market rent and (say) twenty per cent of a household's income, that seems more sensible.
4) Sure, he has so far paid £78,000 less than he would have paid had he been renting privately, but what if had bought a similar house privately, which might have cost £100,000 ten years ago? Instead of receiving £78,000, the taxpayer would have received precisely £1,000 Stamp Duty and f- all else. And he's not married? So f- what?
And if our Bob stays there for another ten years, he'll have paid £156,000 to the taxpayer and still own nothing, and he will still have to pay something - to the taxpayer - for the rest of his life. If he'd bought privately, he would easily have paid off his mortgage by then...
... which leads me to the conclusion that a lot of people in social housing have ended up paying more for their housing than owner-occupiers; so it's not social housing that's subsidised at all - if anything, owner-occupied housing is subsidised, because they pay net nothing to the taxpayer (and on the whole, make tax-free capital gains) but social tenants, on average, do pay something (however little).
5) Shappsy has made a fair few quid off the housing bubble (fair play, so did I) so that's a tad hypcritical. And if he's so bothered about the one family whom Bob Crow has displaced, he's free to divert the £7 billion a year currently wasted in Housing Benefit for private tenants (yes, that is a real cost to the taxpayer) into building 200,000 new units of social housing every year. Twat.
6) Like I said, Bob Crow may be vastly overpaid, but he appears to have some principles. If the scoop had been that he owns half a dozen buy-to-lets, then things would be different.
Not satisfied
24 minutes ago
20 comments:
Good post
Several uncharacteristic typos? I assume you were so mad with the shapps it caused finger trouble.
"It's not taxpayer-subsidised at all. Don't tell me that the cash cost to the council of maintaining that house is anywhere near £7,800 a year."
How much does the Government pay for its borrowing per year?
If this was sold then we would get
£145 K p.a..
So it is costing us however much it costs to borrow £145 K p.a. plus maintenance etc.
Maybe not £7800 per year but not a small amount.
@Mark
"social tenants, on average, do pay something (however little)."
Really they pay more than cost of capital?
Well said Mark, Bob Crow is an idiot, it is principled that he lives in social housing, but how does a supposed lefty like him justify taking £145k off his members? Sadly all too common
Union barons (unfortunately mine included - at GMB) have become just as conservative as the Tory/Labour MPs holed up in safe seats that are funding the 'NO to democracy' campaign calling itself NO2AV.
RS, point them out.
Anon, I am an accountant and taxpayer and I am completely against govt subsidies for housing, but take it from me, social housing costs the taxpayer +/- nothing.
If you want to get into notional cost of notional interest tied up in notional capital gain, well then you can also offset the annual notional capital gain and the net +/- figure is infinitessimally small either way.
NH, ta, I have plenty to bad things to say about trade union leaders, but Bob Crow's housing arrangements seem innocuous to me.
"NH, ta, I have plenty to bad things to say about trade union leaders, but Bob Crow's housing arrangements seem innocuous to me."
Both my feet stand firmly in the BUILD MORE FRIGGING COUNCIL HOUSES camp.
I agree with Mark. I don't see what the big deal with Bob Crow PAYING the council to rent a house is?
I'd prefer it if Bob Crow and other "social" renters paid the market rate, However I wish most/all of the land-rent was paid to the "crown".
SW, ta for back up.
AC1, agreed. But if you stare into the fire long enough, you realise that 'social housing at below market rents' is a bit like Georgism by the back door - you just have to accept the formula:
Market rent minus Citizen's DIvidend = Below market rent.
If the Liberals, a hundred years ago, had proposed a massive social house building program instead of LVT (at a time when only the top ten per cent were owner-occupiers) then all the rent surplus that local councils could have earned would have been far in excess of the taxes on income they could have collected, so likely is, they would never have bothered with income tax - we'd all just rent our houses from the council and pay no income tax.
I disagree.
The rent should be collected then dispersed as a CD I think the CD is the more important part of it as it keeps the state small as it's paid for equally out of it.
Lets just say that IMHO "Social" housing tends to be handed out to the more equal...
Isn't he still just benefitting from being born at the right time?
You have to have arrived yesterday trailing a few kids with a buddy in the housing office these days.
AC1: "I disagree.
The rent should be collected then dispersed as a CD I think the CD is the more important part of it as it keeps the state small as it's paid for equally out of it.
Lets just say that IMHO "Social" housing tends to be handed out to the more equal..."
But it is only given out on the basis of "we're all equal but some are more equal than others" due to two factors:
A) There is not enough "social" housing.
B) Lefties don't really do logic, in the name of "social cohesion" they implement socially divisive policy.
Just had another thought on this one.
Say for example from this day forward, ALL new housing built were social housing. Once built, ALL this new housing is rented out at "below market" rents. This would push down market rents right?
No.
It would create a market in re-renting, that would mean those politically connected enough to secure "social" housing would be quids in.
SL, yes we was born at the right time, and possibly pulled a few strings, but so what? It is not his fault that there is so little social housing, is it? That puts him at odds with your traditionalist Home-Owner-Ist who goes out of his way to restrict new supply of houses to buy.
SW, exactly. Re your thought experiment, it's even easier if you rewind the clock a hundred years (see my comment above) and start from there.
If we all lived in social housing then that would be 'market rent' by definition and councils can charge what they like (they will still be competing with each other).
Councils will make a profit from this and people will demand, rightly, that this is spent on stuff that benefits society in general, including welfare and pensions payments.
And if they don't make a cash profit, so what? At least we all have minimal housing costs so far less need for welfare and pensions anyway.
AC1, there would only be re-renting if supply is restricted!
As things stand - with hardly any social housing and a massive discount to market rents in some places - only about five or ten per cent of social housing is re-rented (about three per cent, officially).
No, as you can see from Mandelsons Dads "Build the tories out of London" Social housing is used for political purposes, not for economic purposes.
AC1, social housing is a powerful thing that can be used for good or evil. The fact that some people have used it to further nefarious ends (and that includes council house sell-off at undervalue) is a quite separate topic.
The most social of housing is private sector rents (with a CD maximising number of houses being built).
The problem is the undersupply of housing, the over-supply of credit and the taxation of incomes, not land-rights.
Making the state involved in even more of the economy adds to the problems.
On the face of it, I'm very much in favour of LVT - it's got to be better than income tax...
That said, I'm not all that sure of the morality of it. I was under the impression (and I admit freely that this may well be mistaken) that once upon a time, the crown did own all of the land, and most of the functions of government were paid out of rents.
Local dukes/barons/etc were granted lands by the crown and were given the responsibility of raising arms if needed, providing funds, etc in return for doing what they wanted with the land.
Now, some of these dukes/barons/etc needed rather more money than they earned from ongoing rents so they in turn handed off portions of the land to others, in return for a big cash payout, once only. Gradually over time, more and more land was parcelled out this way, until eventually we reached the situation today.
So in short, once upon a time, we'd have been clearly justified in using LVT. Now, perhaps less so.
That said, there's no justification whatsoever for the government claiming nearly half of my labour, so that's income tax out of the window. And NI is a big ponzi scheme that I'm unlikely to see any returns from...
In an ideal world, the govt would perhaps refuse planning permission to all plots henceforth, instead offering to buy them at the standard (without planning permission) price, and would build housing that it then rents out at market rates, using the revenue to increase govt income.
RA, that's a fair history lesson, but it doesn't really matter how we arrived where we arrived, as all countries seem to end up with the same concentration.
Even if you start with a brand new continent and give everybody a standard 100 acres each (or whatever) for free (i.e. the British colonies in North America), after a couple of centuries, you are back to the old system where a few hyper rich individuals or corporations or bank owns two-thirds of the land and the vast majority are effectively landless peasants (i.e. the USA today).
The only way to get back to everyone having their 'homestead' (in economic terms) is LVT/Citizen's Dividend (whereby those willing and able to be net taxpayers at least get to live in the nicest houses as a little 'thank you' from society in general).
Your last paragraph is a fair thought experiment, that sort of illustrates my point that social housing is a distant relation of Georgism (and all things considered, has stood the test of time better for practical reasons, i.e. social housing is popular with social tenants, but LVT is wildly unpopular with Home-Owner-Ists).
I think we should look at mechanisms that would be involved in Sea-Steading to build a community.
I guess the community would agree and issue LVT discount vouchers to anyone say bringing "New land" to the community.
If you have a LVT voucher that's good for all tax, and only one tax then the LVT Voucher = Currency.
I thinking ways to extend this principle to our more broken western economies.
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