Monday, 18 May 2015

Irish Traveller Case

From the Standard

Today Judge John Hand QC ruled that members of the group had suffered discrimination and awarded them £3,000 damages each - a total of £24,000.

He said that Wetherspoon thinking was “suffused with the stereotypical assumption that Irish Travellers and English Gypsies cause disorder wherever they go.

Utter bollocks. If they'd not been allowed in for being Irish or English, that's racism. Being a traveller is not a racial definition. It's a lifestyle. You might as well create a race for "Scottish Farmer" or "Welsh Football Fan". We allow pubs to ban people for being football fans, despite the fact that many football fans are perfectly decent people. What's the difference between that and being a traveller? And what do they mean by "gypsy"? A nomadic or free-spirited person, or someone descended from South Asia? Because again, the former isn't racism, the latter is. And if they're referring to people from South Asia, shouldn't the judge be using the correct name, Romani?

And I think it's fair I mention all my non-stereotypical experiences with travellers....


Mark Wadsworth said...

Agreed. It's a pub. Their gaff, their rules.

Kj said...

Well it isn't anymore. Discrimination and denying entry is ok as long as it's not visible vis a vis some victimhood poker cabal, it's actually encouraged if it's per some "Public Health"-policy goal (smokers).

Bayard said...

"Being a traveller is not a racial definition."

It seems to be in Ireland, "Traveller" being their word for Romani. As reported by the ES, of course, it's bollocks, but then you can't expect a tabloid like the ES to know about the importance of capitalisation.

Bayard said...

"all my non-stereotypical experiences with travellers...."

What's your stereotypical experience with travellers? Generally I find that when I'm travelling, other travellers ignore me, although the Irish are more likely to engage me in conversation.

Woodsy42 said...

And in later news: Restaurant in Waco warned that it would be fined if it went ahead with a ban on bikers.

The Stigler said...


But actually the Irish travellers aren't Romani.

"In this study, three main conclusions can be made. First, these analyses support Crawford's (1975) hypotheses concerning the Irish origins and genetic affinity of the Travellers. Judging from the .R-matrix analyses, the Travellers are undoubtedly of Irish ancestry, due to their proximity to the centroid. Furthermore, the Travellers clustered with several heterogeneous counties in Ireland, including Wexford and Westmeath. "

So, Irish travellers are well, Irish.

Lola said...

isn't this all the fault of Harman's egregious 'equalities act'?

Bayard said...

"So, Irish travellers are well, Irish."

In the same way as English travellers are English, French travellers are French and Napoleon's white horse was, er, white, presumably.

Point taken about the Travellers not being Romani, although there are Romani in Ireland. However your quote does nothing to support your assertion that "Being a traveller is not a racial definition. It's a lifestyle." (assuming you meant Traveller, not traveller), in fact the reverse.

The Stigler said...


My point is that "Traveller" of "Irish Traveller" is redundant, racially.

The Stigler said...


Yes, because it isn't just about race any longer but the much vaguer "ethnicity" which includes things like culture as much as race.

And the judiciary are always the worst people with this sort of thing. Stick a Travellers site next to this Judge's house and let him enjoy their non-stereotypical behaviour.

Bayard said...

"My point is that "Traveller" of "Irish Traveller" is redundant, racially."

Well, take out the "Traveller" and you are left with "Irish" and who was it who said "If they'd not been allowed in for being Irish or English, that's racism."?

The Stigler said...


"Well, take out the "Traveller" and you are left with "Irish" and who was it who said "If they'd not been allowed in for being Irish or English, that's racism."?"

But the people making the claim didn't say they were discriminated against for being Irish, but for being Irish Travellers. They had therefore defined the discrimination in terms of something non-genetic, which means they were not discriminated on race.

Bayard said...

"Irish Travellers" are racially distinct from "Irish". Whether that distinction is great enough for you, I don't know, but it's probably as distinct as between "Scottish" and "English", and enough to make being a Traveller a matter of birth rather than lifestyle choice, as you assert. If I decide to go to Ireland and live in a horse-drawn caravan, I would be a traveller, but not a Traveller, just as if I stayed in Wales, I wouldn't be a Gypsy.