To continue last weekend's post on the topic:
a) Caveat: as Chrometum explained somewhat over-forcefully, if we had more respect for each other and the environment, we'd have organised things to that we live in denser, better laid out towns and cities (branches not blobs) and we'd all manage perfectly well with public transport, being trains, underground, trams, buses all depending on the terrain. So much to the "liberal metropolitan" point of view.
b) But a lot of people like the faux bucolic rural idyll (TM, Bayard, popularised by The Stigler) of commuter suburbs and satellite villages which are only accessible by car. They don't really want their village to be accessible by bus, because buses are for the wrong sort of people. So people do their shopping by car as well, and as A K Haart, confirmed, if you've a choice between going shopping in Town A which has a big council car park near the high street or Town B which doesn't, people will choose Town A.
c) Pub Curmudgeon then made the interesting point that commuters, who need all day parking near the station are far less price sensitive than shoppers who need parking. This is a very interesting topic indeed, so let's have a closer look.
i. As a matter of fact, all day parking at the next Tube station in from where I live costs £6 on Monday to Friday, so people who drive to the station and then take the Tube are spending nearly £1,500 a year on parking as against £1,744 for their Zone 1 to 4 Travelcard. Which just goes to show, doesn't it? What do you think is more effort: owning a strip of land near a station, tarmacking it and sticking up some parking meters or laying and maintaining hundreds of miles of track, dozens of miles of tunnels, millions of miles of cables, lighting, rolling stock etc?
ii. But shoppers are price-sensitive, they'll happily spend £100 on the weekly shop in the supermarket but complain bitterly if parking costs them £1. And yes, that includes me. It's the sheer faff of working out what the bloody system is; finding the right change; do you pay before hand or afterwards; at a meter or at the barrier on the way out; which shops will refund the cost of your ticket etc.
UPDATE: Pub Curmudgeon adds: "Actually I think you got the wrong end of my point there. I was talking about car commuters into town centres. They will pay £2 for somewhere ten minutes' walk from their workplace rather than £6 for somewhere next door, whereas shoppers aren't really interested in anywhere ten minutes' walk away. This means that it makes sense for a town centre to have a stratification between short-stay, very central car parks, and all-day ones on the periphery."
Fair enough. I suppose the way to square this is for the town centre car parks to charge £1 per hour and the peripheral ones to charge a flat £2 regardless how long you stay. Which again highlights the difference in rental values between the middle of town and the edge of town.
iii. The simple revenue maximising model for commuter car parks works fine; you nudge up the price to whatever maximises your revenue. If you find that the revenue-maximising price means your car park is only two-thirds full, then you just sell off/use a third of it for something else.
iv. But the revenue maximising point for shopper parking is quite different. The spaces are primarily there for the benefit of the shopkeepers, and what they want is the maximum flow of customers. So the dry-cleaner or newsagent want the first fifteen minutes parking to be free; the hairdresser wants the first half an hour to be free; the supermarket wants the first hour to be free; the cinema wants the first three hours to be free.
v. Whoever owns/controls the parking just wants to maximise revenues. You normally find that the cost per hour falls the longer you stay, so the first half hour is 50p, the first two hours is £1.50, the first five hours is £3; all day is £5 and so on. This is exactly the opposite of what the shopkeepers want; they want the first hour to be very cheap (or free, see para. iv.) and for each subsequent hour to be more expensive than the last.
vi. Most station car parks are, by definition, near the shops because the shops are near the station. So we have a "kinked demand curve"; the revenue maximising price for commuters (price insensitive) is much higher than for shoppers (price sensitive). But the number of commuters is fairly fixed and the number of potential shoppers is much larger. This whole topic is heinously complicated and nobody is really sure how it works (or whether it is a good explanation of pricing policies), so I'll steer well clear.
vii. So let's go back to our shopkeepers and what the optimum car parking charges are from their point of view. As explained in v., there is a conflict of interests between whoever owns/controls the parking spaces (usually the council, the local train/bus company, but it might be somebody like NCP) and the shopkeepers; as explained in iv. there is also a conflict of interests between the "short stay" shops (dry cleaner, newsagent) and the long-stay shops (restaurant, cinema).
The only way to square all this is for the shopkeepers to collectively control the parking charges!
So, if the car park has a hundred spaces and currently rakes in £100,000 a year and there are twenty-five shops, each shop pays £4,000 a year into the pot (or some formula adjusted for size of shop or total turnover etc) and they take over the car park, decide their own scale of charges, and at the end of the year, they share out the parking revenues between them (pro rata to their initial contribution). Whether the larger shops think that paying a larger share of the £100,000 is "fair" all depends on whether the total revenues are more or less than £100,000!
viii. The shops then have to arrive at the maximum flow of cars i.e. customers by adjusting the parking charges by trial and error. At the margin, they are indifferent between receiving £1 from additional parking revenue and somebody spending enough money in the shops to generate £1 of additional profit. So it might well be that they are happy to collect only £50,000 in parking charges if that means people spend an extra £100,000 in the shops (generating an additional marginal gross profit of £50,000).
ix. To then balance the interests of long and short stay shopkeepers, the hourly price has to be constant; so half an hour is 50p, two hours is £2; three hours is £3 and so on. Shopkeepers can then decide whether to give their own customers/patrons refunds on their parking tickets to somehow maximise their own customer flow/revenues.
x. This all tells us that car parking is part of the overall service which the motorist/shopper is paying for and that the car parking charges are just part of the shopkeeper's total income. If Barber Mario charges £10 for a haircut and gives people a refund of 50p for half an hour's parking and Barber Mario next door does haircuts for £9.50 but does not give a refund, then motorists/shoppers will be indifferent between having their hair cut at Tony's or at Mario's, and so on.
xi. Clearly, the car parking revenues are rental income. Ultimately, all the extra income which dry-cleaners, hairdressers, supermarkets and cinemas earn above and beyond their actual marginal costs is all just rental income, isn't it? The parking space is as much part of their business premises as the newsagent's shelves, the dry-cleaner's clothes rails or the barber's chair or the cinema seat in which you pay to sit.
It's a crowded field
3 hours ago
33 comments:
Actually I think you got the wrong end of my point there. I was talking about car commuters into town centres. They will pay £2 for somewhere ten minutes' walk from their workplace rather than £6 for somewhere next door, whereas shoppers aren't really interested in anywhere ten minutes' walk away. This means that it makes sense for a town centre to have a stratification between short-stay, very central car parks, and all-day ones on the periphery.
"the faux bucolic rural idyll (TM, The Stigler)"
Oi! it was me wot coined that phrase, not him.
If we can agree that governments have no money - they only spend taxpayer's money - apply this idea to the council car park.
In what sense does land belong to the council? The council is simply a local representative body for the local community. So called 'council land' is in effect public land, the bits which are not in individual ownership are in common ownership - the council only administer it.
On what moral basis should the council be making a profit from the very people of the community who own it? Surely the council's remit is to administer it to the best interests of the local taxpayers?
Sometimes making a profit may be appropriate, but that should not be taken for granted.
Many shops, even in town centres, provide customer parking. If there were no council parking, then maybe they could club together to provide parking.
C, ah, I see what you mean. That all makes sense as well. But what's the difference between a short stay and long stay? Presumably, the short stay ones are cheap for the first hour and then very expensive, but the long stay ones is a flat charge £2 for as long as you like?
B, was it? Send me a link to your blog and I'll give you a credit.
W42: "In what sense does land belong to the council?"
First you answer the question "In what sense does any land belong to anybody?".
C, yes, obviously. But that still doesn't tell us how they will decide how much to charge for parking to maximise number of customers.
Mark, I don't have a blog :¬( but if I did, that would be a strong contender for the title.
B, perhaps you did invent FBRI, but I have googled my comments and the first time it was used was by The Stigler in March 2011.
"But what's the difference between a short stay and long stay?"
Essentially short stay is prohibitively expensive for all-day parking. Typically would have reasonable charges for up to 4 or 5 hours which is enough for shoppers.
Mark,
FBRI is certainly not my invention, and I think it was Bayard's. I just think it's a marvellous term.
On parking: yes, you need either shops to be doing the parking, or else, the people running the shopping centre (who have an interest in keeping shopkeepers happy).
The purpose of parking charges for shopping should be to maximise the number of shoppers. One of the reasons for gradually increasing charges is that you want people to get on with their shopping, so they release the space for another shopper. So, once you go over 2 hours, the cost per hour starts going up. People will get their shopping done more quickly.
But, the fundamental problem of town centres in the UK is that they are nearly all dated back to the pre-car era. Central Milton Keynes is about the only place that is post-car and is designed accordingly. As a result, most of them put the car parking away from the shops rather than close to them (and don't get me started on the disaster of pedestrianisation). The success of many out-of-town shopping areas is because they were designed with the car in mind.
One near me has the car park at the centre, with shops around the outside. So, people can park close to the shop they want to go to. But this also has another benefit which is that because it's quicker, it frees up the parking space more quickly for another shopper. So, rationing of parking is less of a problem.
And ironically, the ancient town of Marlborough still has a thriving town centre, because there's a ton of cheap and free parking running down the middle of the High St (there used to be houses a long time ago but they got pulled down).
PC, thanks, I've updated accordingly.
TS, agreed to all that.
"the ancient town of Marlborough still has a thriving town centre, because there's a ton of cheap and free parking running down the middle of the High St (there used to be houses a long time ago but they got pulled down)."
That's what I said last week. In some places there might be merit in knocking down a load of buildings to make a car park. Preferably in the middle because that is friendlier. So we end up with an "out of town" shopping centre in the middle of town.
Mark,
Marlborough got burnt down in the 17th century, and in the rebuilding they decided not to rebuild the houses that went down the middle of the road and instead turned it into a market place (a little of it is still market).
TS, I wasn't implying that they knocked the houses down to make a car park.
I'm just saying it might be a better idea than having out of town shopping centres.
A number of towns in the North of England have demolished areas of former slum terraced housing close to the town centre to create car parks.
(and don't get me started on the disaster of pedestrianisation)
Surveys have shown that pedestrianisation usually results in more trade for the shops in the pedestrianised area, not less. I suspect that where it didn't was where there was no adequate parking nearby.
Winchester is another place where houses were demolished in the centre to make a car park (which got built over in the '90s, so I don't know where everyone parks now).
@ This is all quite, quite mad.As soon as we get back the Resale Price Maintenance that the American Supreme Court gave US retail via the Leegin case in 2007 there won't be any need to go into the town centre for items which will be exactly the same price at the local suburban mall or corner shop.Of course ,town centres are the wrong configuration now: they were designed on the RPM basis.This all reads very like anti-LVT prpaganda from people who just don't get it.
All this talk of revenue-maximising car parking charges...most councils juat hate motorists and make the parking expensive to drive them away. They can't go too high otherwise the shops get upset. So it isn't a revenue-maximising charge, it's a kind of political-kudos maximising charge.
In my town all the parking is free because all the people in the town have car-based lives so there's no political desire to bash motorists.
C, that's good to hear.
B, I too am quite in favour of pedestrian precincts - provided it is not just a foul excuse to make life difficult for motorists. You've got to build them an alternative route through town and some car parks if you want them to visit your nice new precinct.
DBC, are you sure?
AC, yes, a lot of councils do anti-motorist stuff just for the fun of it, and it might well be that "no parking charges at all" is the optimum price in some areas.
MW Am I sure what exactly? The Leegin case has re-legalised Resale Price Maintenance in the US,that's for sure.And it is conjectured that the Chinese government is coming round to the idea,to judge by some recent provincial legal decisions .That would leave Europe out of line with some major competitive blocs.(Europe outlawed RPM in its founding Treaty; that's why Heath was so desperate to abolish it in the UK: so he could get us into the "Common Market"). Helen Mercer in her LSE Working paper on RPM reckons the real damage was done to both retail and manufacturing which were tied in by voluntary RPM agreements.She says in her Conclusion that the abolition in 1964 did for manufacturing what the abolition of the Corn Laws did for British agriculture in 1846.
DBC, that's all well and good, but how does RPM help "the high street" or traditional "town centre" as against "out of town shopping centres"?
RPM would stop retailers from opening large stores in low-rent, peripheral locations and following a "pile it high, sell it cheap" approach, because they couldn't sell stuff any cheaper than the High Street. It would also take anyway any price advantage for Internet retailing.
On the other hand, the supermarkets would now largely circumvent it by competing on price with own-label products, which were virtually unknown in the early 60s.
Allowing RPM is allowing freedom in contracts I guess, so no problem with the concept. But as MW says, what will it do for high street retailers? For one, I don't see any reason to cheer a change in producer interest over consumer interests, without being explicitly against it. Second, I bet the end result would be that the high streets who do good now, would continue to do so (for example because of parking availability), and those who don't, likewise.
And what Curmudgeon said, enter own-label products and competing brands, picking up the slack.
As always, it's probably always better to untax proper work, tax rents, and let the chips fall where they may, than worry about some ideal of where people should and should not shop, don't you think?
C, Kj, but surely retailers will just avoid suppliers who choose a high RP and buy from ones with a lower RP?
And there are more Lidls and Aldis on the "high street" than there are in out of town shopping centres (in my own limited experience).
Kj, yes, agreed of course. But rejuvenating "the high street" also means "maximising the rental value of the high street" (they are the same thing, aren't they?) and if that means more parking (or better public transport) or more sensible car parking charges, then so be it.
@MW
What Curmudgeon says in his first para.Shopping would revert back to what it was instead of the once-a-week motorised big shop which needs the car boot to shift a week's worth of baked beans etc when people are picking a can up up from the same price corner shop once a day on the way home.
@C Cannot remember what Mercer says about own-brands in the 50's: she does mention them. I would not like to do a big shop with no big-name brands :no Kelloggs corn flakes;no Heinz baked beans.
I am so old I can remember working at Sainsburys pre supermarket when you had two counters down the sides and any amount of preparation below: pre-pack was just coming in;they still had their own butchers and had just stopped gutting and preparing chickens in the shop. The food was very fresh by modern standards.( The Mac Fisheries chain sold fish fresh from the boats.)Vaccum packing and freezing (homes only gradually acquired fridges) were powerful agents of change.
You can knock down bits of the High Street shaped by traditional British RPM or bring back RPM and leave the High Street as it is.
NB Traditional shops are ,in the capitalist world, among the very few social centres.
MW: Probably, I'd think that the ones who'd want to use RPM would be more price-inelastic, pricey stuff that according to the academics want to "internalise marketing costs", and the generic stuff would be about price as ever.
Agreed, ofcourse there is no point in making high streets worse. If anything, it may be that a lot of out-of-centre shops currently benefit from net infrastructure subsidies compared to town centre ones.
I can't see that realistically reintroducing RPM would take us back to the shopping world of the 1950s. The one-stop supermarket is really as much about convenience as price, and given that most of us have cars now we want to shop in places we can park easily. Also retailers have much more power vis-a-vis manufacturers than they used to, and so would simply de-list brands which expect too high a price. Presumably under RPM there's nothing to stop you selling goods above the RRP anyway. You would have to have a very strong brand to be able to make RPM stick.
KJ assumes that RPM is in the producers' interest and not the consumers' but this ,firstly ,assumes that consumers are not, in a sense, producers as well which they very well might be if employed in manufacturing which, according to Mercer, was ruined in the UK by the end of the "tied" relationship between manufacturers and retail (not an argument I'd heard elsewhere admittedly).Secondly, as Curmudgeon, says out-of-town supermarket shopping requires a car and if you factor in the costs of running this you are not likely to be be showing any saving on the predatory discounts offered by the supermarkets (at the expense of farmers, particularly, among producers).
As I said, I am so old I can remember the advent of popular motoring when the new owners were called "Sunday drivers" because they had nothing to do with their cars but drive out on a Sunday excursion which, because the pubs were all closed, were directionless.
The advent of the supermarket made the car at first useful, which it had n't been before for a lot of people,then, as now, a necessity.
This is not the forum to raise the question of peak oil and carbon footprints but the High Street, and nearby shops reachable on foot, are probably more environmentally friendly , though I am more of the flash cars blaring Chuck Berry school of thought myself.
DBC: that's a circular argument. If the object now has moved to saving domestic manufacturing, well, then you have international competition. I'm sure you have a plan that benefits domestic manufacturing so they can pair up with retailing to save the high street where workers can spend their higher wages?
DBC Reed,
Secondly, as Curmudgeon, says out-of-town supermarket shopping requires a car and if you factor in the costs of running this you are not likely to be be showing any saving on the predatory discounts offered by the supermarkets (at the expense of farmers, particularly, among producers).
Maybe. But you also have a car that you can use for all sorts of other reasons. Unless you want the sort of leisure experiences of the 1960s as well.
DBC: "Shopping would revert back to what it was instead of the once-a-week motorised big shop which needs the car boot to shift a week's worth of baked beans"
My parents (hardcore car users and FBRI snobs) have been doing a weekly supermarket shop by car when I was a kid (i.e. over forty years ago), it's not a new invention, it's just become even more widespread.
Kj: "it may be that a lot of out-of-centre shops currently benefit from net infrastructure subsidies compared to town centre ones."
Well, I believe that it boils down to parking spaces, it's as simple as that.
PC: "You would have to have a very strong brand to be able to make RPM stick."
Correct, but that is all part of the "balance of power" which has shifted between producers and retailers since time immemorial, and worthy of a lengthy essay in its own right, which has absolutely nothing to do with parking charges.
DBC: "the predatory discounts offered by the supermarkets (at the expense of farmers, particularly, among producers)."
That's the next part of the essay - the supermarkets take the piss when paying farmers, because the farmers are no longer allowed to have selling cartels and get agricultural subsidies shovelled at them, and by and large, these subsidies go to the supermarkets as lower farm gate prices (if not snaffled by large landowners).
Kj, I await DBC's response to that one!
TS: " But you also have a car that you can use for all sorts of other reasons."
Like most inventions, it gets invented first and then people find uses for it afterwards. Like the whole FBRI. Whoever invented the term, without affordable cars, there would be no FBRI.
maybe I am in a minority but, unlike DBC Reed, I do not regard the prospect of queieng up at the grocer's to buy a dozen items and then going to the butcher and queieng for some meat and then going to the baker to queue for some bread as a positive step. Perhaps DBC enjoys the endless nattering aout the person next-door who has a dog that barks loudly. I prefer the supermarket experience, especially now they have those self-service tills.
"the supermarkets take the piss when paying farmers, because the farmers are no longer allowed to have selling cartels"
Also, because the farmers are competing against cheap imported food. If you got rid of the subsidies, the supermarkets would just import more and farmers would go out of business. Another reason for leaving the EU (and another reason why we won't).
"Whoever invented the term, without affordable cars, there would be no FBRI."
Indeed, because if you lived in the counrtyside before mass motorised transport, you really were bucolic (unless you joined the landed gentry, of course).
Graeme: maybe it's all the queueing that makes the specialist shops the "capitalist world's only social centre".
@KJ I am not clever enough to construct a circular argument:mine go in straight lines and God knows whence as you have pointed out before.
The argument that the end of RPM spelt the end of British manufacturing is made by Helen Mercer: she compared its effects to the abolition of the Corn Laws on British agriculture.Any problems with that line :read her.
Of course RPM is open to international competition :that is why its not anti competitive, the anti competitive charge being the most frquent criticism levelled against it and what the defence dealt with at length in the Leegin case at the American Supreme Court.
I am not sure what you are saying in your second sentence: it appears to be an acceptance that tied arrangements between manufacturers and retail are mutually adavantageous -but with a question mark on the end.
I'll take it that you agree with me in that case.
Post a Comment