Saturday, 4 February 2012

On Faux Libertarians

Dan Sullivan has written an excellent summary of how the Royal Libertarians (which is his term for 'Faux Libertarians', it's the same thing) have twisted the arguments and misquoted the statements of the earlier real Libertarians beyond recognition; arguments which actually supported land value tax are used as arguments against it.

It turns out, for example, that Thomas Jefferson had already come to this blinding insight:

A right of property in movable things is admitted before the establishment of government. A separate property in lands not till after that establishment.... He who plants a field keeps possession of it till he has gathered the produce, after which one has as good a right as another to occupy it. Government must be established and laws provided, before lands can be separately appropriated and their owner protected in his possession. Till then the property is in the body of the nation.

Which is another way of saying what I have been saying for ages: land 'ownership' and 'the state' are synonymous, you cannot have one without the other. For land owners to pretend that they can own land entirely independently of the existence of 'the state' is arrant nonsense, at which stage I refer you to the lengthier quote from Albert J Nock in the linked article.

Dan also rebuts a particularly stupid argument against Land Value Tax, which is that it would lead to all land being nationalised and that 'the state' would own it all, and therefore 'the state' would also own everything which stands on it*. It is of course not the physical land which is important, it is the rental value of land which is something quite different (the things standing on land are different yet again).** He points out that land rents are neither private property nor state property, they are common property.

The difference is quite simple, if you write a tune, then you have a (state-protected) copyright on it for a number of decades and for the duration, it is private property. Once your copyright has lapsed, that tune becomes common property and anybody can sing it, record it, play it, sell it without paying you a penny. That does not mean that the tune belongs to the government or the state.

It just so happens that it would be an administrative nightmare for every landowner to pay a few pence rent to everybody else in the country and collect a few pence rent from every other landowner, it is far easier for one central body (call it Crown Estates, call it HM Land Registry, call it 'the government') to collect it centrally, spend a bit on core functions of the state and then dish out the rest again as a Citizen's Dividend.

By crude analogy, your labour belongs to you and you work five days a week for a private employer. There is a big difference between the government levying a forty per cent income tax (the equivalent of two days' wages or two-days' worth of your labour) and the government making you do two days' unpaid work for the government every week. I don't really approve of the former, but it's certainly nowhere near as bad as the latter.

And I, for one, don't really believe that the government owns anything at all, at best, it holds it on trust for the electorate or for taxpayers generally, and neither do I believe that the government should be doing much more than the core functions and said collecting and dishing out. To accuse me of wanting everything to belong to the state is more or less the opposite of what I actually want.

* A tenant pays rent for his home or business premises, but he still owns all the physical objects he brings with him, and he still owns all the value of his own labour or income (ignoring taxes), some of which he happens to spend on occupying that favourable site. The position is little different for somebody who owns land/buildings with a big mortgage, and would be no different for an outright owner if the land is subject to an annual tax charge (except he would own the fabric of the buildings as well as the stuff in it).

** Imagine that all your neighbours and the local council decide to build a very high and impenetrable wall on their side of the boundary to your land so that your plot is completely inaccessible. Your physical land is exactly the same and it still belongs to you, but its rental value is now practically zero.

Or on a more day-to-day level, imagine you have acquired one of a limited number of taxi-driver permits, so you have a car, a piece of paper and a source of income. But because competition is restricted, your earnings are a couple of thousand pounds a year more than they otherwise would be (which is 'economic rent') and that permit is worth maybe £10,000. If the local council decides to abolish the permit system and allow competition, then while you still own the same real capital (the car), your income falls (or you have to work longer hours) and that piece piece of paper (the entitlement to 'economic rent') is now worthless. That income which you can no longer earn is now being earned by a competing taxi driver or maybe it ends up with lower prices; so that 'economic rent' has now become 'common property' again.

83 comments:

Robin Smith said...

Excellent stuff.

Bayard said...

"For land owners to pretend that they can own land entirely independently of the existence of 'the state' is arrant nonsense"

A piece of nonsence which the FLs share with anarchists, who seem to think that, without a state, any sort of property will remain yours longer than it takes someone stronger and better armed to want to take it away from you.

Mark Wadsworth said...

RS, ta, thanks to this article I now know where the Faux Libs get this meme of "mixing labour with land" (aka "punching a tree") from, the joke is that they never use the second half of the quote which rounds of the logic.

B, indeed, there is a large overlap between fundamentalist FL's and Anarchists in that regard; at its extreme, they say "Don't worry, if we descend into civil war and everybody against everybody else, then land would not have any rental value" which is true, but nothing would have much value and we'd all be much worse off than now.

Ralph Musgrave said...

I don’t think Thomas Jefferson was right about the distinction between movable property and land. I suggest the MORAL right to ownership of both movable and landed property was “admitted” before any state comes into being. But that right is greatly bolstered once a state comes into being and turns the moral right into a legal right backed by the powers of the state: laws, backed by the police, etc.

Robin Smith said...

Ralph, the question is then, "when does the state come into being?"

My view on that is when the first trade between two people takes place.

The "state" simply gets more important in its first duty (as MW puts above) the more trading and exchanging that goes on.

Its a bad rule that does not work in all cases. It just seems that a big state is too big in comparison. Same thing though.

Big states tend to be bad because they have failed in this first duty, not because they are big.

They have to get bigger as wealth capacity grows. But no bigger than just big enough.

Trust is central to it all. Trust that the "others" the "state" will keep free trade from being monopolised.

Its just an idea.

Mark Wadsworth said...

RM, with stuff you have made yourself, there is clearly a moral right that it belongs to you and other people 'shouldn't' take it away from you. Even animals understand this. By and large, birds make their own nests, they don't steal other birds' nests.

But seeing as nobody made the land, how can anybody have a moral right to it? That said, the physical land isn't important, it's the rental value which is important.

RS, that's an interesting definition. Perhaps you are right.

Bayard said...

"But seeing as nobody made the land"

Yes, but this is where the tree-punching comes in. I'm a settler in the wilderness and I clear and cultivate a bit of land. Someone else comes along and can't be bothered to do any of the heavy lifting and simply orders me off my clearing at the point of a gun, saying "Noone has a moral right to the land, there's plenty more of it over there".

Mark Wadsworth said...

B, that's why it's important to distinguish between a) the physical land/what's on it with b) its rental value. If there is plenty more equally good land elsewhere, then the rental value of your site is still very low or even nil, so you are not siphoning off common property.

If a whole town builds up around your plot so that its rental value goes up to millions - because it's now a prime urban site - then those millions don't belong to you and no amount of tree-punching will ever change that.

Anonymous said...

I suggest the MORAL right to ownership of both movable and landed property was “admitted” before any state comes into being.

That may be, but I also think the inelastic supply-bit was obvious pretty early on, together with the fact that people would rather own something other people wanted than work. Hence jubilee laws specifically in the near east, obligations to the wider community (on landowners) in general.

-Kj

Deniro said...

The rational of Land Value Tax is that with limited land, the legal definiton, and consequence of land ownership must aknowledge the existence of other people. The definition of a tax is an imposition on something that is allready deemed to be exlusively owned by someone else, so using the word tax in the title Land Value Tax is awkward.

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj: "people would rather own something other people want than work" Yup, that's what the whole Homey economic system is based on.

Den: "using the word tax in the title Land Value Tax is awkward" Good summary and indeed. The word 'land' is also misleading as it is 'location' which matters. The correct description would simply be 'ground rent'. But the phrase "land value tax" seems to have gone into common usage so let's just stick with it.

Peter Risdon said...

'Royal' libs is very apt in UK, where there are a lot of soi disant libertarians who are monarchists.

Mark Wadsworth said...

PR, I think that Dan called them "Royal" because that has negative connotations in the USA. While I've nothing against having a royal family as heads of state, in this country, they are the acceptable face of the iron fist of landownerism and thus the antithesis of economic liberalism.

Derek said...

A recent example of the Royal Libertarians at work can be seen here where The Taxpayers Alliance* rubbishes land value tax on the grounds that it is "unfair" and "not progressive".

*An independent grassroots organisation of ordinary taxpayers that has no connection whatsoever with landowners or any political party. Honest.

Anonymous said...

MW: Another way of looking at the crown is as the iron fist of the crown, all land is held from it, therefor no "allodial title" to land. I'm quite partial to the monarchy where it currently exists, hell I think even increasing it's powers in veto would make things less worse than now, does that mean I'm a Royal Georgist?

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

D, thanks, that Mark Drakeford appears to have got it in one.

And of course LVT is progressive, it's just progressive to land values rather than to current earned incomes (and LVT is inherently more progressive than income tax as earned incomes are spread far more evenly than land ownership). And you can make any tax more or less progressive by having either a personal allowance or having an upper limit on the amount any individual or any plot has to pay.

Robin Smith said...

Anon is right about the Jubilee and Redemption of equal rights to land.

In the Bible it clearly states that each time the Jubilee (and redemption) was ignored Israel fell. You don't need to be religious to get the point.

We are in the middle of an almighty refusal to redeem the land today. Holy Crap we are in for trouble.

Deniro et MW , agreed. We are doing education here. Stick to common terms if poss? If we were doing science then we need precision, granted.

Derek. Yup the worst kind. Dr Wrigley and I went to see the TPA 3 years ago to see what they thought about LVT. " Oh never heard of it, very interesting indeed, come back and talk to our 'economics PHD director'". We did, he went completely bananas in front of his staff, in the worst display of "commie" labelling I've ever had the pleasure of witnessing. With a layer of all the KLN's you can think of on top. Intellect defeats wisdom. What was sad was the initial CEO was a really excellent chap.

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj, you can be a Royal Georgist if you like, why not? It takes all sorts to make a world.

Mark Wadsworth said...

RS, I'm sorry to hear that, but not surprised. The TPA's most hated tax is Council Tax, not because it is regressive but because it relates to land.

Robin Smith said...

MW, Yah its the same with the Tax Justice Network but from the other side of the political spectrum.

TJN want to rob the world by tax directly, rent indirectly. TPA by stealing the rent directly, tax indirectly.

Really they should join forces and make a real killing together.

A bad dose of Robin Hood Itis is preventing them from seeing the missed opportunity. (:

The Robin Smith Institute - Real Reform: RobinHoodItis

Georgists get slammed because we point out that both left AND right are corrupt ideologies. TJN and TPA close ranks on us very quickly then!

Anonymous said...

In the Bible it clearly states that each time the Jubilee (and redemption) was ignored Israel fell. You don't need to be religious to get the point.

Fred Harrison and Michael Hudson talked about this in an interview on youtube (lost the link), how the stability of jewish society was ensured by debt redemption and shuffling the land round now and then. And there's also a similar line in Steve Keen's thought what little I've read from him, debt inevitably runs clear of the real economy and drags it down if not dealt with.

-Kj

Robin Smith said...

Anon (KJ)

This is really good stuff. If you can find the links I'd be extremely greatful. Tax free drinking vouchers etc.

This is the best I've found so far:

http://www.landreform.org/be1.htm

Is excellent but land sided.

What's still not clear to me is the sabbatical, the 7 year debt default, was for what kind of debt?

Struggling landowners leased out their plots until they could afford to redeem them with compensation for the remaining term to the lessee. But thats not a debt because the production value of the land was benefit for the usage charge in the lease.

I guess it must have been the same strugglers who also need to borrow stuff in addition to getting landless.

Sounds familiar!

Bayard said...

"The TPA's most hated tax is Council Tax, not because it is regressive but because it relates to land."

God, talk about Alice-in-Wonderland. LVT is political poison because it's far too regressive (regressive taxes are fine so long as the really rich can avoid them). Also LVT goes against the Englishman's dream - to become a squire and live off, preferably rural, rents.

Anonymous said...

RS: The only thing that rings a bell is that each seven years you were supposed to leave the land in fallow (ancient set-aside), and the counting went seven times seven sabbaths, and then the year after that (50) was the year of the jubilee, yay, all debts cancelled and all that.
This is the interview with MH (fron Renegade Econ), and he was talking about antiquity in general, not Israel.

-Kj

Snarfangel said...

> Mark Wadsworth said...
And of course LVT is progressive, it's just progressive to land values rather than to current earned incomes (and LVT is inherently more progressive than income tax as earned incomes are spread far more evenly than land ownership).

> Bayard said...
LVT is political poison because it's far too regressive (regressive taxes are fine so long as the really rich can avoid them). Also LVT goes against the Englishman's dream - to become a squire and live off, preferably rural, rents.

Actually, I think Mark is correct (and I'm not just saying this because it is his blog). Numbers are few and far between, but land ownership is far more skewed than income -- there are many more people who don't own land at all than people who don't have any income. An LVT is naturally progressive even when taxed at a flat percentage of value, but for a progressive income tax you need to increase rates as the income increases (which leads to such wackiness as a person making $100K one year and $0K the next paying more in taxes than a person who makes $50K each year).

Derek said...

You're right about the TJN and the TPA, Robin. It's a shame because I agree with the stated objectives of both organisations. I want a world with no tax evasion. I want a world with small-but-not-too-small government. And so it seems crazy to me that both organisations dismiss the LVT/CI single tax solution which would give each organisation what it says it wants. Although to be fair the TJN does see a place for LVT as part of a tax package.

Still, I'm a bit shocked to hear of the reception that you and Adrian got from the TPA. Even if they didn't approve of what you were proposing there was no need for name calling. A little politeness goes a long way.

Robin Smith said...

Anon KJ. Thx for the link. I've googled a few more and am reviewing and saw they were generalising. Israel is by far the most obvious though. Some of these guys are timid about religion etc though so cannot go there explicitly.

To clarify from my understanding, the Sabbath, Sabbatical and Jubilee were mostly land value related in the end because that is where all wealth is sourced.

Sabbath rested the body and mind(for worship)

Sabbatical rested the land and defaulted all money debts

Jubilee fully redeemed the land to its original tribes.

Its interesting that we've had 3 full 18 year business cycles without redemption now. We are past the Jubilee. Natural law demands it.

Bayard said...

"LVT is political poison because it's far too regressive"

Sorry, I meant progressive, which I now find out is wrong too. LVT is actually proportional, which, I suppose, makes it too regressive for those who like progressive taxes and vice versa. (Memo to self: look stuff up in Wikipedia before pontificating about it.)

Robin Smith said...

Derek. Interesting your comment on TJN. We have been working very close to them recently on this.

Dont let the TJN deceive you.

Severe credibility issue. They finally know LVT makes sense so cannot avoid discussing as they used to. Amazing that it took the tax experts so long to discover the major government revenue source of the ages.

Vested interest. But, they cannot support it fully because they are funded by the national association of accountants. Who just love tax. Tax tax tax and more tax. Its their job. It pays well. The high priests of tax collection.

Personal morals and complicity. Then they are socialists and landowners. If it were seen that they were deliberately evading tax by not supporting LVT they would be executed on the altar of hypocrisy in the morning.

So they are now in a very difficult place. Their best strategy is to accept LVT as "just another tax". Because this is worse than denying it outright. It will be marginalised and forgotten about. Just like the Green Party do.

So they are in a tight corner. We are still trying to help them out of it because in the end they will be buried very deep when the public finaly sees their hypocrisy. And it would be knowing this not to help someone. We should help them before that happens by whatever means as we do the others.

But its not only the right who dispicable when their monopoly of ideas is threatened. TJN are the rudest characters I have ever met. This merely shows how desperate they are to avoid exposure.

Mark Wadsworth said...

B, ta for clarification, I assumed you were being tongue-in-cheek anyway.

Snarf, yes of course. It's a simple fact that earned income is distributed far more evenly than land ownership is (that seems to be a natural law of untaxed land ownership, that it becomes more concentrated over time, even if you start with a fairly level playing field like in the USA); even if you take football players on superstar salaries, at least every boy from whatever background has an equal chance of becoming a Premier League player.

What makes the concentration of land ownership, i.e. the collection of land rents far more extreme is the fact that about a third of all land rents in the UK are collected by banks via mortgages. The banks pass on half this as interest to depositors, a bit to their normal workers and then the top few thousand bankers take a huge chunk, £20 billion or so, i.e. a tenth of all UK land rents, for themselves as salaries and bonuses.

Bayard said...

If LVT is a tax on land rents, and mortgages are, in effect, land rents, what would be the fiscal effect of making mortgagees, i.e. banks, liable for the LVT on the proportion of the land on which they hold a charge?

Mark Wadsworth said...

B, that's a tricky one because it depends on assumptions.

Assume that 'home owner' has £100,000 plot with £100,000 bricks and mortar on it with a £150,000 mortgage. Do you allocate the first £100,000 mortgage to bricks and mortar and the remaining £50,000 to the plot or vice versa?

Assuming we took a straight average (so in the above example, the mortgage is split £75,000 plot and £75,000 bricks and mortar), then banks would be paying around a third of all LVT.

And our hero in this example would pay a quarter of the LVT due and the bank would pay three-quarters. But would banks just hike interest rates accordingly for existing borrowers? Probably, so I'm not sure what this would really achieve for current borroweres.

For future borrowers, it's a break even, because it would push down the selling price of land to a negligible amount. They'd have lower mortgage payments, higher tax payments.

Fraggle said...

But would banks just hike interest rates accordingly for existing borrowers? Probably, so I'm not sure what this would really achieve for current borrowers.

This is where I'm a bit stuck. Current borrowers are a much bigger issue than Poor Widows in Mansions anyday. With a rightful private contract (borrowing to purchase structure) intermingled with a fraudulent one (borrowing to purchase land title), removing the value from the fraud makes a large hit that has to be taken by some combination of borrower ('Hard-working families') and lender ('Vital enterprise').

Because they can just up the interest rate, I don't see how it can be the lender that takes the hit, even though to me that would be the best way to do it (they can just go bankrupt/have a D4E swap and then whoever has the assets are left with loans on structures, with the nonsense debt going back into the ether from whence it came). Not that even that would be acceptable as long as 'Too Big to Fail' is an accepted axiom.

Mark Wadsworth said...

F, that's the clever bit.

The people with the biggest mortgages are, by and large, recent purchasers. Because the house-price-to-income ratio for such people is relatively low, they would benefit quite significantly (in terms of current tax payments) if we replaced taxes on incomes with taxes on land values.

So yes, they are stuck in nequity, but they will have more net income to pay it off, so will be out of nequity again in ten years or so.

You can invent all sorts of extra measures for dealing with issues arising from the nequity, such as allowing people to repay it out of their future Citizen's Income

The NPV of a young couple's future CI for the next twenty years is something like £70,000, so they can just waive their CI and sign over £70,000 of the mortgage to the government (so instead of paying cash to the couple as CI, the government pays those amounts to the bank until the nequity element is paid off).

People with insane amounts of nequity like £100,000-plus are in a bit of trouble, but so what? You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

Anonymous said...

MW: that's by far the best transition plan I've heard. But is there an inflation issue in the interim if suddenly a lot of mortgages get "paid off", or are we assuming that LVT payments would pick up the slack?

-Kj

Anonymous said...

By the way, I've got new feed for KLN, faux-lib oriented stuff. this critique has some points that maybe you've treated somewhat before (as regards to shop owners upping the neighbourhood), but anyway I quote:
The form of land-use towards which the single tax pushes us is one in which the countryside is randomly dotted with perpendicular towers (tapering wastes land), 200 metre or so on a side, 2000 metre or so high, each tower a complete small town of 50,000 or so, inclusive of apartments, shops, offices, services and factories, but paying no more tax than a single suburban house....
It is indeed a general rule under Georgism that landholders will wish to reduce the positive externalities their properties emit and increase the negative externalities as much as they can get away with, because by doing so they reduce their own exposure to the single tax.


Sorry for the lengthy quotes. But anyway, I think it's an interesting point of view; is there any percentage point of tax on rents that negatively affects the production of positive externalities from disperced sources? A laffer curve of beauty of sorts.

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj, don't worry, taking people's CI will exactly counteract any inflationary effects.

As to the perpendicular towers nonsense, I've been referred to that before, it is such complete and utter shite that I didn't consider it worthy of deconstructing.

LVT would exactly counter-balance centrifugal and centripetal forces, which pull people into towns and push them out of towns respectively. It's no different to the position faced by a non-land owner who's deciding where to buy or rent - a small flat in an expensive town centre or a larger home for the same price a bit further out?

If, for example, everybody lived in such towers, then land values a few hundred meters away would be minimal and so there'd be plenty of people who'd flee the city and build a nice big house on a nice big plot a tiny bit further out, paying little tax, etc.

Mark Wadsworth said...

Moving on...

"It is indeed a general rule under Georgism, landholders will wish to reduce the positive externalities their properties emit and increase the negative externalities as much as they can get away with..."

Yeah but they do that anyway, under whatever system.

"...because by doing so they reduce their own exposure to the single tax."

What is he talking about?

He chucks in a couple of fancy economist phrases like positive and negative externalities and ends up in gibberish.

Your way to minimise your exposure to LVT is to occupy as little land as possible, which means that land is used more efficiently. So we get more businesses in the town centre trading from smaller premises and no derelict sites. Yippee.

Then out in the suburbs, wealthy people will continue to live in (and pay tax on) the nicest houses in the nicest areas in the same way as they are happy to take out the biggest mortgages now, or pay to drive the nicest cars, go on the nicest holidays and so on.

Residential land occupation is, beyond a bare minimum, pure conspicuous consumption-personal enjoyment.

Faux Lib's are even more irritating that yer good old fashioned Home-Owner-Ist.

Robin Smith said...

MW "But would banks just hike interest rates accordingly for existing borrowers? Probably, so I'm not sure what this would really achieve for current borrowers"

If mortgage interest comes out of rent (I reckon closer to 75%) then it cannot be passed on by higher interest rates. It *must* be paid by the rent collector. ???

What you are all talking about here is a bit like allowing robbery to take place only to confiscate it back again later. That's TAX is it not? Why not abolish the robbery at the root.

It also sounds very much like you are all asking for a Location Value Covenant. (LVC) A main feature of which is to redirect the payment for land value services from the banks, who provide nothing, to the government who even in the worst tyrannies at last give something back.

Views 3 slides here for LVC's
http://www.systemicfiscalreform.org/

KJ inflation with an LVC is impossible. Govt now prints the money to buy the mortgage asset and gives it to the banks to use as reserves to back depositors. Then tells them to take a hike. And collects the rent from the home owner in perpetuity.

Once the majority are on LVC's we make it mandatory and it becomes LVT. Simples.

Derek said...

Kj, I've taken a look at that Paul Birch stuff before. I came to the conclusion that it's a classic case of theory without experiment. The best way of refuting it is to look at what happens in the Real World. That's what we call a Natural Experiment. In the Real World the equivalent of LVT is Ground Rent. So anywhere that Ground Rent is being charged, we should see the consequences that Mr Birch claims as consequences of LVT. There are plenty of examples from history. Meiji Japan, Kiaochow Bay, 19th century Denmark, et cetera. Each of them is a Natural Experiment. We don't see Mr Birch's consequences, so there must be something wrong with his theory. QED.

I don't know exactly where he went wrong, but then I'm not being paid to find out and I don't care enough to do it for free.

Mark Wadsworth said...

RS: "If mortgage interest comes out of rent (I reckon closer to 75%) then it cannot be passed on by higher interest rates. It *must* be paid by the rent collector."

Aha, but you overlook the relationship between EXISTING borrower and lender. If we said "OK, all LVT is to be paid by the mortgage lender" and the lender just hikes the interest rate on EXISTING borrowers accordingly, what is the borrower going to do? He has no choice but to pay it (or hand back the keys), so it makes little difference from whom it is demanded.

The borrower is not in a good bargaining position, but if the tax on his income is cut, he can afford to pay either the LVT or the higher mortgage interest rate anyway, so I do not see it as a big problem in the first place.

D: "I don't know exactly where he went wrong"

He went wrong when he decided to become a Faux Libertarian and thereby abandon reason, logic or facts in order to justify the unjustifiable.

Bayard said...

"the countryside is randomly dotted with perpendicular towers (tapering wastes land)"

He's wrong there too. Tapering is good - just look at any mediaeval street - you've just got to taper the right way: towards the bottom.

Mark Wadsworth said...

B, re tapering, I read something about that recently.

The reason given was that the sun shines at a flatter angle into upper floors than lower floors (bearing in that the building opposite was of equal height).

Therefore you can build the upper storey widest and the sun will still shine all the way to the middle, but the sun hits the ground floor at a much steeper angle, so the storey is narrower - if they made the ground floor deeper, then only the bit near the windows would get natural light and the middle bit would be dark.

Now, in terms of geometry, that makes sense, but I read a book as a kid which said that the reason was the people in the upper storeys liked to empty their chamber pots out into the street.

Another perfectly viable explanation is that on the ground floors, you want a wide pavement so that you get a lot of customers walking past your shop; especially if the pavement is semi-sheltered from rain (or sewage) falling from above.

Or maybe it was just fashion? Like painting the timbers black and the rest white. Who knows?

Robin Smith said...

Though we are all doing sterling work with the faux libs and homeys, we are not really getting anywhere.

Not a criticism its a noble cause, and must be done, they need help, just pointing out what is there.

Does anyone fancy forming a working group to figure out a new approach that might help them see how the world really works?

I'm serious.

Mark Wadsworth said...

RS, of course we aren't getting anywhere! Home-Owner-Ism and Faux Libertarianism are like The Terminator, you cannot reason with them, you cannot argue with them, they will not stop until they kill you, and then having killed their host, the parasites will also die.

Or, slightly less dramatic but equally depressing note, it's a question of educating younger people as to how they are being conned.

It's not like the establishment wants to give them a hand up, the established parties completely ignore their interests, so young people become disillusioned with politics and don't bother voting, so there is then every incentive for the established parties to become ever more ardently Home-Owner-Ist and so on in a vicious circle.

Fraggle said...

He went wrong when he decided to become a Faux Libertarian and thereby abandon reason, logic or facts in order to justify the unjustifiable.

Made me think of Lord of the Rings: "When did Saruman the Wise abandon reason for madness?!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1Vyhve9gtg

I saw a fairly comprehensive rebuttal of this somewhere, but can't remember for the life of me where. I mentioned it in one of my posts once to point out that his gallant foray into mathematics was utterly pointless because it didn't say what he thought it did.

Because the house-price-to-income ratio for such people is relatively low...

??? I was always under the impression that recent purchasers are the ones with the ridiculously high LtoV ratios.

In any case I was just thinking that making mortgages non-recourse would solve the borrowers bargaining position problem. Whaddyareckon?

It also sounds very much like you are all asking for a Location Value Covenant.

Yeah, it is about time I got back to looking at those.

Does anyone fancy forming a working group to figure out a new approach that might help them see how the world really works?

Not sure I'd be much help there - I can do logic, but logic clearly isn't what's required here! :)

Fraggle said...

That said, I just had an idea where you can illustrate the robbery going on with a bit of Big Fish/Little Fish. Each fish (parents) gobbling up the smaller ones (children) just in time to be gobbled up by the humongous ones (banks). Or something like that...

Anonymous said...

Derek: So anywhere that Ground Rent is being charged, we should see the consequences that Mr Birch claims as consequences of LVT

I guess the rationale behind his theory is that the individual actors are willing to produce positive externalities, or at least not try to contain them, since they are themselves receivers of the ground rent.

Derek:There are plenty of examples from history. Meiji Japan, Kiaochow Bay, 19th century Denmark, et cetera. Each of them is a Natural Experiment.

But most historical examples are of partial claiming of the land rent. Denmark maybe half, Hong Kong a third or something? I don't know about Japan and Kiaochow bay though. As MW says, there is already an element of trying to contain positive externalities now as much as possible, but what I am getting at is if there can be anything in the theory that there is some behaviour change (from developers/landowners, we already know that tenants are willing to pay up for location benefits), where almost all ground rent is charged. I guess the closest approximation now would be in sites where there's a land-lease situation, large area, with solid structures where most of the land rent is taken from the leaseholders.

-Kj

Anonymous said...

Though we are all doing sterling work with the faux libs and homeys, we are not really getting anywhere.
Not a criticism its a noble cause, and must be done, they need help, just pointing out what is there.


I nag about this all the time whenever I can to whomever, but I still love to argue for and against to learn, as long as people are willing to bother though. At least in GB there seems to be some momentum, and I wish you the best. While in my part of the world, we are talking no awareness/knowledge of the issue whatsoever, no newspaper mention, no debate forum mention (except maybe mine), nothing.

-Kj

Robin Smith said...

MW agreed (: Is that a yes? Ah but I tried for 8 weeks with young Occupiers. There are a minority of them good guys, really mean it, but not enough and they burned out totally within 3 weeks God bless em.

Fraggle, there you go, the first good idea. Does that mean we have a working group. What shall we call it. We could meet every Friday for beers and then maybe talk about this stuff too if it comes up?

Mark Wadsworth said...

F: "I was always under the impression that recent purchasers are the ones with the ridiculously high LtoV ratios."

Yes, they had high loan to value ratios, but I was talking about house-price-to-income ratio. The rule of thumb is that the lower the multiple, the more tax you will save by shifting to LVT. Clearly, there is a cut off point above which you're be worse off. I reckon the multiple is about seven, i.e. house £210,000 couple's joint income £30,000.

I'm quite sure that recent purchasers with big mortgages will have lower ratios than this, because to buy a £210,000 house you'd need to show a joint income of at least £40,000, giving you a house-price-to-income ratio of 5.25, which is less than 7 so you'd end up better off under LVT.

Bayard said...

"Or maybe it was just fashion? Like painting the timbers black and the rest white. Who knows?"

Personally, I think it was so they could build a bigger house than their plot area would allow, by building over the pavement by building above it.

"I guess the closest approximation now would be in sites where there's a land-lease situation, large area, with solid structures where most of the land rent is taken from the leaseholders"

I.E. Hong Kong, where there was no freehold, because, historically, all the land remained belonging to the Chinese government and the British gov't were on a lease.

Anonymous said...

MW:Or maybe it was just fashion? Like painting the timbers black and the rest white. Who knows

I think this was originally because of tar applied to timber for preservation, and white because it's lime.

B:I.E. Hong Kong, where there was no freehold, because...

But the lease-payments plus taxes in HK doesn't soak up near full ground rents. HK does prove that you can take a significant chunk of ground rents without "hurting" property booms.

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

B: " they could build a bigger house than their plot area would allow, by building over the pavement by building above it"

That is equally plausible, see also the office blocks above railway lines in London.

Kj, We need not look as far afield as HK, we have Business Rates in the UK which are as close to LVT as makes no difference. There are high office blocks in town centres where values are high, and sprawling shopping centres/car parks and industrial estates further out in the countryside where values are lower. We get this general pattern with or without LVT.

Anonymous said...

MW:we have Business Rates in the UK which are as close to LVT as makes no difference...We get this general pattern with or without LVT.

I'm not questioning the fact that centripedal/centrifugal forces would work anyway, I'm just looking for markets where most land rents are collected and look at how the actors behave.

Is there anything in the following statements?:

1.Risk premiums for development by investors would be higher where most of the ground rent is collected. (maybe depressing ground rent some?)

2. Landowners would generally oppose third party/government development that potentially increase ground rents, and more than now try to contain "positive externalities" where most of the ground rent is collected.(Birch's main thrust)

I always get the old "less will be built" argument, and that's usually the main argument besides old ladies that needs to be counteracted.

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj,

1. Nope. Let's say a site has a rental value of £50,000 and interest rates are 5%. In an LVT free world, the site would cost you £1 million. So you can risk £1 million of your own money (losing £50,000 safe interest income); you can borrow £1 million from the bank and pay £50,000 a year interest. In an LVT-world, the ground rent is £50,000 a year with no up front cash or borrowing cost; the risk to a developer is greatly reduced.

2. Nope. Landowners are perfectly entitled to try and block infrastructure improvements or ask for the local police to be shut down to increase crime and thus depress land rents. I don't see why they would do this though, they'd end up worse off.

"I always get the old "less will be built" argument"

??? The Homey's and Faux Lib's come up with three KLNs:

- less will be built;
- more will be built and farmers will be forced to concrete over the countryside for housing;
- we'll end up all living and working in mile-high tower blocks.

They are complete idiots as those three arguments cancel out, and you can only sustain any one of them by only looking at a small part of the picture.

The fact remains, imposing LVT would not have any dramatic effect on development patterns, apart from encouraging more efficient use of expensive urban sites. And nobody said we had to abandon planning restrictions, separate topic.

Anonymous said...

1. Very good point, I guess the psychological background for this, and what Birch claims, is not believing in downwards movement of the tax, ever.

They are complete idiots as those three arguments cancel out, and you can only sustain any one of them by only looking at a small part of the picture.

To a lot of opponents credit, they just use the first argument. The current debate here now is abolishing interest-deduction from the income-tax, and the main argument used against that is also "less will be built", which reflects the belief that house-price-rises drive the economy.

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj, my personal view is that if we had proper LVT in the UK, there'd be a lot of stuff built on vacant and under-used urban sites, but then we wouldn't build very many new houses for a decade or three.

That's because we actually have plenty of physical housing in the UK, it's just very badly allocated; for every single pensioner shivering in The Family Home there is a young couple squidged into a one-bedroom flat; once all these people have up- or down-sized, we'll establish that we are all quite comfortably housed.

But look, don't the NIMBYs always wail on about The Hallowed Green Belt; from their point of view, less new-build is A Good Thing, so if they really believed that LVT would lead to less new construction, they should welcome it with open arms, surely?

So if you argue with them, a few minutes later they'll say that LVT would force farmers to sell off their land for development etc.

Robin Smith said...

Forgive me folks but this is all getting a little too intellectual. And that does not bode well.

"I'm just looking for markets where most land rents are collected and look at how the actors behave."

In ALL markets the land rents are collected. Just extremely inefficiently through tax on work and enterprise. Enormous dead weights. Enormous risk creation. Enormous disincentive to produce.

How will the actors behave. Well it requires low intellect to figure that out. High intellect to cover up the observations and history. Right!

Fraggle said...

Yes, they had high loan to value ratios, but I was talking about house-price-to-income ratio.

Ironically, so was I. Not sure why I said Loan-to-value.

I'm quite sure that recent purchasers with big mortgages will have lower ratios than this, because to buy a £210,000 house you'd need to show a joint income of at least £40,000, giving you a house-price-to-income ratio of 5.25, which is less than 7 so you'd end up better off under LVT.

You've probably answered this before, but who generally has house-price-to-income ratios of 7 or higher?

Fraggle said...

In ALL markets the land rents are collected. Just extremely inefficiently through tax on work and enterprise.

or privately via the traditional route.

It strikes me that it's actually quite easy to show that taxes on production/trade come out of land value. Anytime someone considers leaving the country when a tax is raised, they are implicitly demonstrating that if they were to leave a certain region, they would pay less tax. Hence, if tax rates differ in different jurisdictions (which they do) then all tax is geographic. If they choose to stay, then the benefits of utilising a location (in this case, a country) outweigh the price that location demands. Sounds familiar...

Mark Wadsworth said...

RS, in all markets all land rents are collected, question is whether privately or publicly :-)

F, people with the highest high house-price-to-income ratios will be mainly those who bought twenty or more years ago, whose house has shot up in value but whose earnings have stayed the same or gone down (including Poor Widows).

Clearly, recent FTB's (assuming they haven't lost their jobs) will have the lowest ratios, certainly no more than 6 (unless the Bank Of Mum & Dad gave them a huge deposit), and the ratio for people who bought donkeys' years ago might easily be 10 or 20 or 100 (in the case of a Poor Widow In A Mansion).

There must be some overall average ratio (7 or 8?) and a straight shift from taxing incomes to taxing LVT benefits those with a below-average ratio, and encourages those with an above-average ratio to either go out and get a bloody proper job and stop moaning, or to downsize.
------------------
There is a separate issue that loan-to-income ratios have increased over the decades, from two/three to four/five, that's a separate matter.

The people who bought a house back in the day when two/three times income was the upper limit for a loan are likely to know have a house-price-to-income ratio of ten.

The people who bought in the past few years with a loan-to-income ratio of four/five will now have house-price-to-income ratios of five/six.

Robin Smith said...

Fraggle: Exacamundo. Dr Wrigley says too that "People would come or go to particular regions depending on the ratio between CI and Public Capital Works"

MW: Yup. They are ALWAYS collected. ALL of them. There is no escaping it. Nature is stronger than man. Alas we forget this and try to use the intellect to overpower it by privatising it. To be gods. BOOM! (:

Anyone going to the Annual SES Lecture tonight in Bond Street?

Anonymous said...

Forgive me folks but this is all getting a little too intellectual. And that does not bode well.

I think discussing the little bits and pieces that connects to existing frames of references is interesting, I hardly think that's too intellectual, and most people I discuss these things with seems to think the same.

-Kj

Robin Smith said...

KJ, fair enough.

Would you be willing to let me know who you are and what is the objective of your investigation then?

Just interested.

Robin Smith said...

p.s. MW et al,

Would it be fair to say there is such a beast as a "faux georgist"? There is probably a better term.

That is, one who claims to support LVT, but marginalises it alongside taxation. Thereby burying its fundamental nature out of sight, more so, than by not discussing it at all.

Mark Wadsworth said...

RS, probably there is, but I've already made enemies with 80% of the population (Homeys and Faux Libs) so I'm not going to go round insulting people who are favourably inclined towards LVT. For avoidance of doubt, Richard Murphy is the wrong side of that line.

Robin Smith said...

MW you can read my mind.

No need to insult anyone. But no harm in questioning core beliefs and moral values politely.

Yes, to them that will be an insult no matter how gracefully you put it.

Its their religion you are questioning as much as any formal religion.

The high priest of tax is buried as deep in it as is the TPA chief economist.

Mark Wadsworth said...

RS, in fact, you can call me a Faux Georgist if you like. At present, about one-tenth of UK taxes come from land values in the widest sense, I'd be delighted if they changed it so that one-tenth came from land values in the narrow sense (i.e. annual rental value, not transactions or poll taxes); I'd be over the moon if it were one-fifth or one-third and we got rid of (say) VAT and Employer's NIC, and so on.

Robin Smith said...

MW I'll have to disappoint you. "Works" mean nothing. What matters is what you really want deep down. If you were God, what would you do.

I think you want the full monty.

I think we should reserve the label for the hypocrites. That is not you.

Anonymous said...

RS: Would you be willing to let me know who you are and what is the objective of your investigation then?

This question alone would have easily convinced me of saying "just a thirty-something average person, working in chemical analysis, trying to get together an economics-degree part time, interested in economic policy (but politically disinclined), and more than average in LVT specifically". But together with this statement:

Would it be fair to say there is such a beast as a "faux georgist"? There is probably a better term.

- I'm more inclined to ask you if you are the f... high priest of georgism or something. But that's just me.

-Kj

Robin Smith said...

KJ. Congratulations. And best of luck with your degree.

You are dead right. I am a high of priest of Georgism. I'm honoured that you should label me so. A zealout and proud of it. Thank you for making that so clear with profanity.

When I ask about your objective, I mean what do you really want to get out of it in the end?

Anonymous said...

RS:

Thanks. I'm glad your honored. As MW points out, LVT supporters are unfortunately marginal in the bigger political picture, do you think insistence of pureness of heart is at all relevant? And do you seriously mean discussing/deconstructing the arguments is at detriment to "the cause"?

When I ask about your objective, I mean what do you really want to get out of it in the end?

A more just tax-system, not fleecing productive people and not having a one part of the population tax another. A more libertarian society. What about you?

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj, good answer. Robin gets a bit carried away online, in real life he's as nice as anything.

If I understand correctly, you live in Norway, so explaining Georgism to them is easy. Remember that most Western governments have a very Georgist approach when it comes to things like oil. The oil is in the ground for the taking, it is free money, and as the State protects the right to extract oil (by having a Navy) and dishes out the licences, it can tax the Norwegian oil extractors at very high rates like 80%, which goes into the national fund.

Sure, the oil companies would rather pay zero tax, but as long as they get to keep 20% of the free money, they are happy to get on with it, so oil gets extracted and the state's coffers are full.

It's no different with LVT. Land rents are free money from the point of view of the landowner. Sure, he'd rather have NOK 100 than NOK 20, but faced with the choice of NOK 20 or nothing, it is still worthwhile owning land and getting the free NOK 20. it doesn't change the way that people behave to any great extent.

Anonymous said...

MW: True on the oil-rents, and there's plenty profitability left over for private industry after the 78%. Notably, hydro-electric production is also taxed at 58% (the specific name of the tax on HE is actually "ground rent tax"). Early in the 20th georgists were in parliament, so the history and view on obvious common resources is there. But in practice this doesn't translate into an understanding of the same principle in land property at all. And I wasn't kidding about there being no mention of LVT except in dictionaries and history books. Property, debt-interests and income from property is virtually exempt from tax and both the OECD and our own central bank have warned about unsustainable property-price increases for years, but any mention of touching on property fiscally is as marginal as asking for the return of public hangings. So yes, the oil money is "ours", and evidently most of labour and capital income as well, but land values fuelled by that same money is "mine".

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj, it is amazing how the topic is whitewashed out of economics books and history books.

My oldest boy is at Uni doing economics, and his whole first term primer textbook, 500 pages long, did not mention land values or land rents, it mentioned the Japanese share price bubble but not the Japanese land price bubble etc etc. Everbody knows about the US share price crash in 1929 but nobody mentions the land price crash o a couple of years earlier.

There are plenty of books about recurring banking crises which waffle on and on about credit and solvency and liquidity and only mention house prices once or twice at the very margin.

Anonymous said...

and his whole first term primer textbook, 500 pages long, did not mention land values or land rents,

I've got the same experience, only one derogatory reference to George, but then again, the history of economics and economic thought seems to have been pushed out of the lecture plan, probably bumped by "CSR and ethics".

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj, it certainly didn't mention Henry George, oh no, most textbooks don't.

I'd never heard of him until I got into Citizen's Income and LVT a few years ago (by process of elimination and trial and error) and people asked me whether I was "a Georgist". It then turned out that everything I'd thought up independently had been though up before - the oldest example being Queen Elizabeth I of England back in 1601.

Anonymous said...

Out of curiosity, what did QE1 say/do?

-Kj

Mark Wadsworth said...

Kj, she was The First Georgist of modern times. Not just that she installed a very basic welfare system, but look at what she saw as the root causes of poverty and how she raised the taxes to pay for it.

Anonymous said...

Thanks.

-Kj

Bayard said...

Is 81 comments a record?

Mark Wadsworth said...

B, no, but 82 might be.