Pogo, in the comments to a recent post:
@Mark... Of course I don't think that council tax covers all council expenditure - I thought that it was about 25% not 10%. However, it's rationale is that it's "paying for services rendered"..
"The government and society in general provide services, landowners consume them."
Bollocks! People consume services. My garden, for instance, consumes nothing supplied by the council, neither does my house. The people living in it are the consumers. I fear that you let your, somewhat irrational fanaticism for LVT cloud your view of reality at times.
Perhaps I phrased that a bit clumsily, strictly speaking I should have said "The government and society in general rental values, landowners enjoy or collect them, and even they do neither, they deprive others of them."
1. I'm not irrational. It's the topsy turvy world of Home-Owner-Ism, where borrowing counts as saving and where income counts as expenditure, which is irrational. Or, as I'll illustrate, where customers demand services for free (or below cost) and where shareholders are forced to pay. I know simple analogies are usually wasted on the Homeys, but here we go...
2. A quoted plc sell goods and services to its customers; it makes a profit on that activity and then distributes the profits as dividends to its shareholders. Those dividends which the shareholders receive are not in exchange for "providing a service", they are a one-sided payment in exchange for nothing apart from the shareholder being a shareholder.
3. Each company does what it does best, making shoes, printing newspapers, developing new medicines, whatever; it tries to maximise its profits, and the more it does so, the wealthier are its shareholders. The shareholders want the company to sell its goods and services for their profit maximising price and want to receive the maximum in dividends.
4. Now, let's apply the same logic by treating a "state" as a quoted plc. There is only one thing that "states" do particularly well, that is to have armies, police forces, land registries and a legal system, in other words, to monopolise force. They are rubbish at most other things. That's all "a state" needs to do.
5. A "state" is a semi-voluntary kind of corporation; everybody who lives in the land area controlled by that state is a part-owner or shareholder, the only way to opt out is to emigrate, but let's gloss over that. So every citizen owns a share in "the state" where he lives and for which he has a passport etc.
6. Now, having an army and a police force costs money, but what sort of revenues do "states" or the existence thereof generate? Land rents of course! If there is complete anarchy, there are no land rents whatsoever; by having law and order, rental values rise and rental values can be collected - question is, by whom? Is there any reason why "the state", on behalf of its shareholders/citizens shouldn't charge market value for generating those rents, rather than providing those services free to the land owners and allowing the land owners to collect them; and then forcing the shareholders to pay for the running costs?
7. We see with a quoted plc that the customers are expected to pay for what they get (shoes, newspapers, medicines) and then the shareholders receive dividends. In my view, exactly the same principle should apply to "the state". Think about it, if you want to become an owner-occupier or landlord in a civilised country, you hand over cash, fill in some forms and hey presto, you're away. Now try becoming a landlord in a failed state like Afghanistan or Somalia, you just can't do it. Without a well functioning state, there is no land ownership.
8. So our "state" provides one main service, which is generating land rents (defence and law and order are subsidiary to that); and it ought to charge the profit maximising price (close to 100% of land rents, i.e. Land Value Tax) for that service. It spends what it needs to spend on the core functions (defence, law and order, land registry), and then it dishes out the (huge) surplus as dividends (or a "Citizen's Dividend").
9. For sure, there are things like public goods like roads or education which are not strictly speaking in the remit of "the state", but if it can spend £1 and boost rental values by £2, it is money well spent. So some of the money available for dividends is reinvested rather than being paid out. A landlord would still be a landlord if the walls are getting a bit grubby and the carpets are fading, he doesn't pay for redecoration and new carpets out of the goodness of his heart or for the benefit of his tenants, he does it because every £1 spent on redecoration or new carpets boosts his rental income by £2.
10. When the state pays for roads or education, it is not providing services to its shareholders, it is either paying dividends or investing for the benefit of landowners. The services, or the value thereof, accrue to its ultimate customers, the land owners. There is no earthly reason why people should pay to attend a school, seeing as they are already being deprived of the cash alternative (vouchers for schools) or to pay toll charges to use public roads (fuel duty is a rationing measure only because we don't have nearly enough roads to meet what demand would be if petrol were cheaper).
11. So for land owners to wail that citizens should be forced to pay for the cash cost of services provided (via, basically, a Poll Tax or income tax) in order that the land owners can bank the value of the services they receive for a lower price (or preferably free) is, to quote Pogo, "irrational". That's a bit like BMW customers saying that they should be given the cars for free and that BMW's shareholders should pay BMW for the privilege of being shareholders.
Cop29 signs off vast amount of other people's money
34 minutes ago
20 comments:
>But when the state runs schools, it is not providing services, it is paying dividends!
Lose it a bit here. That's not an equal dividend. Bes thing to do is skip vouchers and just let people purchase education for their children. The states role solely to force parents to ensure their children are getting an education.
AC1
"Those dividends which the shareholders receive are not in exchange for "providing a service", they are a one-sided payment in exchange for nothing apart from the shareholder being a shareholder."
The shareholders are the ones that provided the money either to start the business in the first place or to keep it running in the second place. That's not money "for nothing apart from the shareholder being a shareholder", that's a return on capital invested. They are providing a service, they are lending their capital.
AC1, we don't agree on this point and never will.
B, it was an analogy, don't go all Home-Owner-Ist on me!
It must be pretty obvious is that the only difference between anarchy (no land rental values) and a civilised state (with rental values) is that the majority of people in the latter geographical area agree to abide by common rules and to appoint arbitrators (police, courts etc) to settle disputes, it's cheaper and better.
So "a state" only exists because people agree to it existing, therefore everybody who agrees to abide by the rules is creator and hence part-owner of the state. It's no different to any other sort of club or organisation.
195 now? My my.
JH, I get them delivered for free by people on the internet who think they're really clever. Then I debunk them, then somebody thinks he's even cleverer ad infinitum.
The shareholder analogy can also be extended further: shareholders vote in managers who to do their best to run the business, and they will reward themselves handsomely for the trouble. The difference is in the lack of incentive packages in the state-version of the corporation.
-Kj
Kj, oh the politicians reward themselves all right, firstly while they're in office and then once they leave they call in all the bribes from the 'private sector' rent seekers for whom they've been doing favours all the while. Or they go to the EU.
"My garden, for instance, consumes nothing supplied by the council, neither does my house"
So I'm assuming that Pogo would have no objection to the council not providing the service of preventing his neighbour building a block of flats right next door? It's not his land, why should he have a say in its use? Other people have to pay higher rents/house prices as a result of the state dictation of land use, and Pogo gets a fat unearned land value as a result. Call it a draw and tax the unearned value and reduce the tax burden on everyone else.
I know simple analogies are usually wasted on the Homeys, but here we go...
2. ... Those dividends which the shareholders receive are not in exchange for "providing a service", they are a one-sided payment in exchange for nothing apart from the shareholder being a shareholder.
Hell's Bells Mark! I thought that you are an accountant...
The "service" provided by the shareholders is the provision of their money as capital. No dosh, no company. Thus dividends are payments for the use of said money.
No wonder we "homeys" fail to understand your analogies if they're consistently that wrong!
@mombers... As a libertarian I'd be very hypocritical to object to whatever my neighbour decided to do - as long as it did nobody any harm. As a normal, venal human being I'd probably be very pissed-off about it but can take comfort in the knowledge that it's not going to happen - not because of planning regulations though, the land round here is too unstable to support such a large structure safely (which means that my garden has in fact zero value for development). :-)
P, I covered that point above in reply to Bayard:
"It must be pretty obvious is that the only difference between anarchy (no land rental values) and a civilised state (with rental values) is that the majority of people in the latter geographical area agree to abide by common rules and to appoint arbitrators (police, courts etc) to settle disputes, it's cheaper and better.
So "a state" only exists because people agree to it existing, therefore everybody who agrees to abide by the rules is creator and hence part-owner of the state. It's no different to any other sort of club or organisation."
So, in case you still can't see grasp the analogy, shareholders create the company by providing money and get dividends in return.
Citizens create the state by abiding by the common rules and thus generating land rental values; the Citizen's Dividend is your reward for abiding by the common rules and your share of the rental values that are thus generated.
"my garden has in fact zero value for development"
So what? Your plot has a location value, which is whatever you could rent it out for. If there's a house on it, then it has been developed.
@pogo:
"the land round here is too unstable to support such a large structure safely (which means that my garden has in fact zero value for development)"
The ground is clearly stable enough to support a house, and you'd be surprised to see what modern engineering can do to overcome ground issues. I sincerely doubt that you would happily stand by if every one of your neighbours built houses in their back gardens. Your garden would become a little courtyard.
@Mark...
So, in case you still can't see grasp the analogy, shareholders create the company by providing money and get dividends in return.
Yes, I know... Shame you didn't say that in the first place. :-)
You and me will never see eye-to-eye, we're both too sure of our own position.
@mombers... The particular bit of ground on which my house stands is indeed stable enough, however virtually all the other houses in what was once quite a large village proved somewhat less stable. To give you an idea, my house number is over 200, it's the first house, of the five survivors sharing numbers between 200 and 260, that were lucky enough to be on top of small granite outcrops...
I sincerely doubt that you would happily stand by if every one of your neighbours built houses in their back gardens
What neighbours??? :-)
Actually Mark, I can see where you're heading with the concepts of LVT - which in many ways has the potential of being a very fair system. However, as you yourself have said on many occasions, LVT would only work as a replacement for all other taxes, and this is where I get cold feet... Politicians appear to be congenitally incapable of deleting taxes, only adding new ones - Income Tax was a temporary measure to help finance the Napoleonic Wars IIRC.
LVT - probably a very good idea in theory. Catastrophic in practice.
P: " Politicians appear to be congenitally incapable of deleting taxes, only adding new ones"
Agreed, that's one of the few valid KLN's.
But what people merrily overlook is how many posts I do complaining about the 50p tax rate, VAT, Employer's National Insurance and so on. I hate those taxes as much as I love LVT.
The good news is, LVT is an in-your-face tax, so will be wildly unpopular, so the pol's would demonstrably have to reduce other taxes by £2 for every £1 LVT they collect.
The bad new is, the past few hundred years show a trend in the other direction - reducing LVT (which we used to have) by £1 and increasing stealth taxes on incomes by £2.
Pogo, I used to know someone with a garden like yours. His house was built on the edge of a filled-in quarry. Solid rock under his house, fifty foot of soft shite under his garden.
Simplest way of building a stable house in soft conditions like that is to use a concrete "raft" as a foundation. It basically "floats" on the earth beneath. Even works when building on a literal marsh.
D, I saw that concept on a Sarah Beeny program, what puzzles me is, why doesn't the concrete raft just sink?
Same reason as a concrete boat or a steel ship doesn't sink in water: it may weigh a lot but it still weighs less than the water it displaces.
Likewise the concrete "raft" foundation plus the house on top of it has to weigh less than the earth that the "raft" displaces. Note that this means that a flat slab of concrete won't work. It has to be hollow, or at least a little bit bowl-shaped. But since earth weighs a lot more than water, only a little bit.
D, aha, that makes sense.
In the old days, they made the raft out of tree trunks. Winchester Cathedral was built on a raft like that which lasted hundreds of years until the water table started to drop.
Post a Comment