This topic seems to generate a lot of passion on both sides, the Daily Mail article has so far attracted over 1,700 comments, which is unusually high even by the Mail's standards.
As to the finances, it boils down to three main items which more or less net off to nothing:
1. The Scots would draw a new boundary for the Continental shelf, basically a straight line heading due East from the English/Scottish border, see map here and collect North Sea oil revenues from their patch. According to that same link, Scotland's ninety per cent share of North Sea oil revenues would be about £10 billion a year. On the BBC yesterday, they quoted a lower figure of £6.5 billion.
2. UK government spending is skewed towards the three non-English nations and poorer areas in England. According to Wiki's write up of the Barnett Formula (as poor old Lord Joel Barnett has been saying for decades, it's not a bloody formula!), average spending per capita per year in Scotland is about £1,200 higher than the average for the rest of the UK. So the UK as a whole subsidises Scotland to the tune of £6.2 billion.
3. Alex Salmond conceded yesterday that Scotland would assume a share of existing UK government debt, proportional to population or GDP. GDP per capita is about the same so we can split it proportional to population and Scotland's share would be 5.2 million/62 million = 8.4% and if UK government debt in 2015 is £1,400 billion or thereabouts, then Scotlan's share would be £118 billion. Let's guess the average interest rate on UK government debt at 3%. As a small/new country, Scotland would end up paying a bit more than that, say 3.2% and the interest rate on the residual UK's debt would fall ever so slightly.
The net position is thus as follows:
1. Scotland gains £10 billion a year;
2. Scotland loses £6.2 billion a year;
3. Scotland loses £3.8 billion a year interest (assuming debt is rolled over in perpetuity).
Scotland's gains = rest of UK's losses and vice versa.
To my untrained eye, that looks like a nil overall position. Of course, oil revenues can go up or down quite markedly; there are different ways of calculating per-capita overspend in Scotland; and interest rates can go up or down (and we don't know what the Scottish premium would be). So each team of negotiators has to do its own forecasts and then bring them into balance by increasing or reducing Scotland's share of UK national debt accordingly. Provided that each party expects to at least break even on the final agreed deal, then the deal is worth doing, end of.
There are of course lots of other bits and pieces that have to be looked at; whether UK nuclear submarines will stay in Faslane and whether the UK Navy will still pay for ships to built in Scotland; who is responsible for paying the old age and public sector pensions for people who have worked and lived both in Scotland and elsewhere in the UK, but we can apply the same principles. It is not an intractable problem.
Thursday, 12 January 2012
From a fiscal point of view, Scottish independence would be a non-event.
My latest blogpost: From a fiscal point of view, Scottish independence would be a non-event.Tweet this! Posted by Mark Wadsworth at 13:20
Labels: Alex Salmond, England, Independence, Scotland, SNP
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19 comments:
You're making a heroic assumption in 1). The Maritime border if it continues the rough line of Hadrian's wall, would not give anything like the oil revenues expected as much of the Gas especially is in "English" waters. Scotland will NOT be allowed to draw an arbitary East-West line. Not by england, nor by international law.
J, the Scots drew that line, not me. I personally would draw it going North East (of course), which gives Scotland a smaller share of oil revenues, and we balance this out by only making them take 5% of UK national debt instead of 8.4%.
Does the £1.4tn for total uk public debt include PFI and liability for unfunded public sector pensions?
I'd assume the Socttish state would take on bureaucrats as per existing contracts... Why wouldn't they take on the (unfunded) liability for their bureaucrats?
AC1
RA, the £1.4 trn is just today's projection of what UK debt will be in two or three years. At present it's more like £1 trn.
So it is subject to wide margin of error.
PFI is simple. If the asset (school, road, hospital, whatever) is in Scotland, then the Scots pay it. If it's in E, NI, W, then we pay it.
The £1.4 trn does NOT include public sector pensions, but provided there is little migration, and people end up being paid where they live, then there is no need for any fancy splitting. Scotland pays their retired public sector and we pay ours. Sorted.
The point being, the whole thing probably nets off to nothing either way.
Broadly speaking, I agree with whats being said.
There are some intangibles as said and I think they will prove to be considerable.
Scotland's fiscal situation according to GERS is fairly healthy but many believe even GERS underplays things since a lot of tax paid by Scot's is registered as being paid in London (for example) so doesn't figure in GERS.
What people really need to understand is Scotland already pays for a share of MOD, FCO etc, we wouldn't be starting from scratch. We already have airplanes and tanks, even the odd navy boat.
Folks forget that when they're trying to work out how much independence will cost.
I think we'll be slightly (only slightly) better off. If we do cock it up, at least it'll be our own fault though, thats the most important thing.
Pa, if Scotland wants to have 8.4% of the tanks, aeroplanes etc. then they are welcome to them.
I also don't see a problem with UK navy having bases in Scotland. Didn't the Yanks have soldiers and missiles stationed in various European countries for a long time?
The UK currently has bases in Cyprus and Germany, while the US has bases in Australia, Germany and Japan (as well as - although I haven't checked exactly which ones - former US colonies like the Philippines and Guam). And the US still has several air force bases in the UK (amusingly referred to as "RAF xxxx")
So there'd be nothing weird about EnglandWalesNI basing troops in Scotland.
""If we do cock it up, at least it'll be our own fault though, that's the most important thing.""
Except that the English will continue to be blamed for it. Human nature, I fear.
Oh, also, Mark's right and Jackart's wrong on the oil - the Law of the Sea is based on equidistance, not on continuation of land boundaries, so the fact that the land border runs at 45 degrees is completely irrelevant. Equidistance isn't quite a line due east from Berwick, but it isn't far off.
see Map 2 here.
JB, yes, more good examples. It's a non-issue.
OT, thus giving the English something to have a hearty laugh about. It's all good.
JB, the due East line is not my line, I just went with what the Scots themselves say.
I think they are being a tad greedy, but so what? In their heart of hearts, they probably know it, and so as a quid pro quo, we'll press for them to take a bigger share of national debt than otherwise, and they will be prepared to take it.
Hang on a minute, that debt share looks a bit lite since it were Royal Bank of SCOTCHLAND and Halifax Bank of SCOTCHLAND we bailed out....can't we stick all the consequent debt for that on them?
L, yes, that's another adjustment, some RBS-related liabilities have to be added on, and then the Scots get all the 84% of RBS shares and all the RBS bonds which the govt owns, and so on. Details, details.
HBOS in turn belongs to Lloyds, we are going to have to take that one on the chin as quid pro quo etc.
In item 2, you talked about spending per head, but haven't you missed out the taxation side of the issue? Do Scots pay the same in taxes per head as the English do?
AC, it is widely assumed that they pay approx. the same tax per capita. As Pa explains above, it's difficult to track down so let's just ignore it and look at bigger picture.
""If we do cock it up, at least it'll be our own fault though, that's the most important thing.""
Except that the English will continue to be blamed for it. Human nature, I fear.
@Oswald. I'll make you a deal, if we can continue to blame you, you can continue to blame Scottish PM's and CoE's. ;-)
@Lola.
No one knows what the debt from the bank bail outs actually is. Lots of big numbers bandied around, I heard from one banking source that the actual cash sum was only some 25 billion. The rest was the B0E adding some zeroes on the bottom of a balance sheet to increase a notional OD facility.
And no you can't stick us with all of that debt, only a percentage of it. Although, we'll take it on board if you're also willing to pay back all the tax pounds the London exchequer reaped during the good times.
Maybe you should just call it quits?
Pa: "... we'll take it on board if you're also willing to pay back all the tax pounds the London exchequer reaped during the good times. Maybe you should just call it quits?"
Hang about here. We can easily that extra per capita spending in Scotland is roughly the same as oil revenues, past or future, so those two fit nicely together. I.e. you can't ask for the past oil revenues, because you've already had them via the Barnett Not-Formula.
And if you take on the share of national debt relating to RBS (which you will, you have no choice in the matter) then of course you get all the shares and bonds in RBS which the government currently owns.
The net overall deficit on RBS at present appears to be about £30 billion, so you are not being saddled with £187 billion or whatever figure mentioned, you are just coughing up the £30 billion we spent bailing out your biggest bank. If RBS shares go back up to 50p or 60p, then you will break even on the deal.
It all might nett to nothing as things stand now, but after a few years of the SNP's super-Brownite economic miracle they will be the new Greece.
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