Prelude, from 1984:
"[Winston Smith's] mind slid away into the labyrinthine world of doublethink. To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself.
That was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink."
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There are (at least) three ways of looking at or measuring how wealth flows to landowners, which all come to the same thing when expressed in £-s-d:
i. The rental income which accrues to them, which can be enjoyed in kind (by living there) or turned into money by renting out the place or selling it.
ii. The value of the benefits which accrue to landowners because of the location, location. location (which is another way of saying that land values are created by the community).
iii. The burden which any landowner places on 'everybody else' (i.e. those members of the community who created the land value in the first place), the external cost to 'everybody else' is of course more or less equal to the benefit accruing to the landowner in i. (see second part of previous link for the maths and logic behind that).
When we look at i. the Home-Owner-ists claim that non-cash income is not income, and when we look at ii. recent purchasers with a mortgage say, not entirely unreasonably, that they are paying for those benefits out of their hard-earned money. However, iii. is the coolest way of looking at it because this way it is irrelevant how any landowner came into ownership - for example, the fact that your neighbour has bought his new television out of his own hard earned - rather than winning it in a raffle or stealing it from a shop - does not give him the moral right to listen to it full blast all night long.
When it comes to LVT, the Homeys flatly deny that they are placing any sort of burden on anybody else (see discussion over at 4liberty) and thus they think they have a clever argument against iii. as well.
Fair enough. We conclude that on Planet Homey, a landowner places no burden on others or on other landowners. To each action is there is no reaction. We can have specialisation without free trade. Black is white.
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The funny thing is, when it comes to increasing our real housing wealth (as opposed to paper wealth) and simply building more houses where people would like them, the NIMBYs are out in force saying that no new housing should be built because the new homeowners (landowners) will place a burden on the existing homeowners (landowners) in that area (farmland isn't really land for these purposes, it's main purposes is just to provide a view as far as NIMBYs are concerned).
On the assumption that you'll never get a Homey or NIMBY to admit to being a raving hypocrite, how do they square this? There argument seems to be that not building houses anywhere near them is the right thing to do for society as a whole because, presumably, the burden this places on existing homeowners far outweighs the benefits to the potential new homeowners.
Now, if that is correct, if we start with the oldest house first, every single house built since then must have placed a burden on the owner of the oldest house (because of agglomeration, the reverse usually applies in real life, which is why land in the centre of towns and cities is infinitely more valuable than farmland, but the Homeys even deny this), and let's assume that either
a) The new houses have now been built. Surely the burden which the new houses place on the older houses is exactly equal to the burden placed by the older houses on the newer ones, in which case the whole thing is a score-draw (notwithstanding the agglomeration benefits to owners of old and new and the fact that the more housing we have, by and large, the happier we are)? or
b) The new housing is refused planning and does not get built. Then there are the burdens which the existing homeowners place on the owner of the farmland who'd love to get planning, and on the people who are thus forced to live further away, in a less desirable area, in more cramped or more expensive accommodation etc, which must, by any stretch of the imagination, also be pretty hefty and ball-park, those burdens are equivalent to the current value of the existing housing, i.e. the benefits which accrue to existing homeowners in any area.
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So when it comes to arguing against LVT, land owners place no burden on others; but when it comes to arguing against new housing they do. If you tried to programme a computer with this sort of stuff, it would cease to function.
Are We Allowing The Wrong People To Attend University?
17 minutes ago
21 comments:
Bet that feels better out than in...
My HOME still hasn't earned me a penny in income, tell me again why I should pay tax.
I bought my HOME so that I could reside where I wanted to reside and not where some unelected Council suit said I should reside.
It's all mine and Mark Wadsworth nor his crony commie mates is going to steal it from me.
You're welcome to give it a try though.
Fuckov.
L, yup, I've been mulling that one for a day or two.
Comrade F, and what do you say to young people who would also like a HOME, and who would like to reside where they want to reside and not where some unelected proto-Socialist NIMBYs say they should reside? That's a serious question, by the way., I do proper grown up debate to just swapping insults.
Anon @ 19.50. My HOME still hasn't earned me a penny in income, tell me again why I should pay tax.. Oh yes it has. Less any mortgage costs it has saved to cost of renting somewhere to live. Not paying out is the same as having extra income.
L: "Not paying out is the same as having extra income"
Exactly. The funny thing is, my old mum explained this to me when I was about 12 and it made perfect sense.
She went one further and explained 'notional costing' as well, i.e. if a man spends all year growing vegetables in his back garden to feed his family, and this saves them £100 cash expense, he has actually earned £100, in a very real sense.
Further, if instead he spent all year tending a single prize turnip in his back garden instead of growing vegetables and wins a £10 prize at a competition, he hasn't actually earned £10 at all, because if he'd grown normal non-prize winning vegetables he'd have saved £100, so by growing a single prize turnip instead of £100 of veg, he has lost £90.
But this is clearly beyond the minds of Socialist central planners like Comrade F, so for simplicity I will explain/justify LVT on the basis of iii., i.e. the burden placed on others.
If I stop my car in the middle of a lane on a highway, shouldn't I be able to charge for moving on and letting traffic flow, and aren't I entitled to what the market can bear during rush hour? I paid for the car didn't I?
Anon, that reminds me of the Pavement Tax (which might well have been your idea, I can't tell Anon's apart) an example which I used to good effect recently.
I don't get this "burden on society" idea. If some geographically challenged suicide bombers blew my house to pieces, no-one would benefit from it not being there and eight people would suffer from not having a roof over their heads. Moreover, given the choice, noone would choose to rebuild the house where it is, cunningly situated where there is no view (in the old days, people cared more about shelter than views). I wouldn't object to someone building a house 100 yards away from mine, where there is a stunning view, so where's the burden?
B, of course it is a shame when buildings are destroyed, that has absolutely nothing to do with it. It may well be the case that your plot of land is in a fairly marginal area, in which case it only places a teeny, tiny burden on society, and in a very few areas, the rental value is clearly £nil.
So, when you eventually and hypothetically steal my HOME, what will you do with it?
serious question, put up for proper debate.
Comrade F, unlike you and your apparatschick chums, I have no intention of stealing anything, not least because I'd exempt pensioners from LVT.
And for the dozenth time, I ask you, "What happens to somebody's house if he buys it out of income where he has evaded income tax and the authorities catch up with him, assuming he has no other assets?"
"Exactly. The funny thing is, my old mum explained this to me when I was about 12 and it made perfect sense"
Was that yesterday?
Was the council/private rent more or less than the mortgage repayment?
Did rent, on news from the government that interest rates were to go up, immediately increase as did mortgage repayments?
All serious questions put for proper debate.
Should ALL HOME owners be placed in one camp and ALL renters placed in another. should they then draw swords and beat the living shit out of each other. I have the feeling that that is the end result desired by Mark and his communist buddies.
I have nothing against HOME renters and I am certain that HOME renters don't really care about my circumstances, we all have bigger fish to fry - like keeping communists and socialists out of our lives.
Fuckov.
And for the dozenth time, I ask you, "What happens to somebody's house if he buys it out of income where he has evaded income tax and the authorities catch up with him, assuming he has no other assets?"
You call that a SERIOUS question?
Comrade F, as ever, I shall patiently reply to your drivel:
"Was that yesterday?"
Nope, if you took the time and trouble to read a proper cost accounting or economics textbook, you will see that all this stuff is used in practice.
"Was the council/private rent more or less than the mortgage repayment?"
WTF are you talking about? I was explaining notional income and notional expenses. Do you have any grasp of accounting or economics?
"Did rent, on news from the government that interest rates were to go up, immediately increase as did mortgage repayments?"
Rents are fairly stable and unaffected by interest rate changes, by and large, mortgage repayments for existing mortgages go up and down with interest rates. This is also widely known.
"Should ALL HOME owners be placed in one camp and ALL renters placed in another. Should they then draw swords and beat the living shit out of each other?"
Nope, why? LVT is due the same on all houses, if the owner chooses to live there, then he pays it; if the owner chooses to rent it out he will set the rent so that it covers his real costs + the LVT (quite clearly, if this led to a loss he would sell the house again). There is absolutely no conflict between tenants, landlords and homeowners which 'the markets' will not sort out (house prices adjust up or down so that everybody gets a fair deal).
Finally, yes it was a serious question. If you do not give a full and detailed reply to this within the next ten minutes I shall delete each and every one of your comments in future because you are getting really, really irritating.
Fuckov prefers that the LVT be collected and liquidated on default by private entities such as banks. and developers. It's much more sportsmanlike.
"B, of course it is a shame when buildings are destroyed, that has absolutely nothing to do with it."
You misunderstand me. I was only postulating the destruction of my house because, if it places a burden on others, that burden would be lifted by its removal. I can see that if my house was between another, older, house and a stunning view, then it would benefit that other house if it was removed, but it's not and moreover, there must be hundreds of thousands of houses like it up and down the country. That is not to say that their rental value is nil. I could probably rent a house like this out for say, £1000/month, but I fail to see how that places any sort of burden on anyone else. Please explain.
B, A building in itself does not place a burden on anybody or anything, unless it is derelict, supremely ugly or so high that it casts a shadow over plots, blocks a view etc.
I was talking about the burden which your ownership/exclusive occupation of the land/location places on others, which is broadly equal to the rental value. If you could only rent out your house for £12,000 a year + council tax, then to arrive at the rental value of the land/location, you knock off the replacement cost/value of the bricks and mortar x (say) 4% and that is the end of that (remembering that the £12,000 a year is depressed by the fact that people's net income is hugely depressed by income tax and the fact we have no CI).
Now, it maybe that a similar house in the Hallowed Green Belt would rent for £3,000 a month, because NIMBYs say that no more houses may be built there, so a large part of that £3,000 is the scarcity value, i.e. the burden you place on others who would also like to live in the HGB.
Fair enough, by living where I do, I am preventing others doing likewise (but not completely, they could come and build a house next door, I'm not stopping them, but the LA probably would.) However, how does that square with the fact that my house was on the market for two and a half years before I bought it? Where were the people I am depriving then?
B, of course we could (physically) build houses next door; but if there is a premium on having stand alone mansions in an acre of country side, then they dilute your scarcity value and you theirs. And if they build enough houses and places of work etc, then at some stage it flips over and becomes valuable urban land that is more valuable the more densely populated that area becomes.
And if the house was 'on the market' for too long, then clearly the price demanded was too high, if the reluctant owner was faced with an annual LVT bill, then he'd be far more likely to drop the price to a level where the house sells quickly.
It's like centrifugal and centripetal forces in physics, or the way that atmospheric pressure squashes gas down and heats it up, even though warm air rises; the free market discipline of LVT will ensure that everything settles down to an equilibrium very quickly.
Yes, but that still doesn't make "the burden which your ownership/exclusive occupation of the land/location places on others" to be "broadly equal to the rental value". In my case, I got here first, when I bought my house, it was the only one in a half-mile radius. Since then, I've acquired neighbours, so wouldn't object to another lot turning up. So I am not placing a burden on anyone, but my house is still worth, say £1000/month rent. OK, this is a special case, but it still means that this "burden on others"="rental value" theory is only really works in an urban/suburban environment.
B, I agree, the mathematical relationship is not so clear in rural areas, but owning even rural land still places a burden on others (it is the people and the buildings which usually bring a net benefit to others, not the act of owning land itself). And how are we to guesstimate that burden other than looking at the rental value?
As to your example, when the UK's population was only a million, the burden which any landowner placed on 'everybody else' was minuscule, but as the population increases and the economy grows (more cars, so more people happy to live out in the countryside) so the burden increases.
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