What really puzzles me is that the minute you mention taxes on land values, people go completely hysterical, and it's not just the Home-Owner-Ist propaganda kicking in, I suspect it is because people do not have a clue about maths, let alone economics or equity.
I had a hysterical reaction five years ago when I originally suggested replacing Council Tax, SDLT, Inheritance Tax, Capital Gains Tax and the TV licence fee with a flat one per cent annual charge on the current market value of all residential land and buildings - and not being totally daft, I made it clear that there would be a roll-up/deferment option for pensioners.
The way the maths works, very few people would actually be much better or worse off in £-s-d, whether on a year by year or on a lifetime basis - with the big upside that about a thousand pages of tax legislation could be swept away and the more modest upside that maybe housing would be allocated ever so slightly more efficiently, thus preserving The Hallowed Green Belt - but nope, hysteria was the order of the day.
Since then, on the basis that you may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb, I have proposed that you might as well replace all taxes with Land Value Tax, which means raising eight times as much, and I get exactly the same grief - not eight times as much, which confirms that people really don't have a clue about numbers (if raising £40 bn in LVT is bad and earns you grief, then surely raising £320 bn in LVT is eight times as bad, yes?).
And lo, let us once again dip into the recent rich harvest of crap over at The Guardian:
How do you propose to fairly tax the owners of farms (1) or woodlands (2) without making their products disproportionately high? (3) What about industrial and retail land, which is the seedbed of small business which create new jobs? (4) And critically, what about pensioners: many are asset rich, living in houses where the mortgages have been paid off, but cash-poor with modest weekly incomes (5). A land tax would (literally) kill some of these people: it would be a choice between paying the "unavoidable" tax or turning on the heating...(6)
That said, the UK tax code is Byzantine in complexity, and there is a good case for ripping the whole thing up and starting again (7). I'm a former partner in a Big Four accounting firm, not a tax specialist, and a lawyer. And even I pay an accountant to keep my tax affairs in order: not to avoid anything, just to make sure I pay the right amount and don't trip up. There's a lot of dead money sloshing around like that (not dead to tax advisers, obviously). (8)
Yup, that's what you get for your money over at a Big Four accounting firm!
1) The article made it quite clear that LVT would be a replacement tax for income tax etc. It wouldn't be rocket science to work out how much income tax etc the agriculture industry currently pays. Let's say it's £2 billion in income tax a year (half a million people @ £4,000 each) and they farm 50 million acres, so the average income tax bill/acre is £40 a year. The author of the article mentioned specifically that it would be important to increase the personal allowance to £10,000. Maybe this would reduce the total amount of income tax paid by the agricultural industry by a quarter, in which case, provided the tax on agricultural land were no more than £10 per acre, then no harm done!
2) Profits from forestry are, bizarrely enough, income tax free to the landowner under current UK law, but not the income of forestry workers (which is subject to PAYE as normal). The rental value of forests is very low - about £10 per acre a year - because the value of a growing tree only increases by £1 per year or so (and half of that gain goes on wages and upkeep). So a tax on forests of about £5 a year would more or less balance out the 'cost' of increasing the personal allowance of forestry workers to £10,000 (or whatever the precise figures are).
3) The commenter fails to realise that farm and forest rents are a balancing figure! Total income, i.e. the value of the output, is more or less fixed (they compete with produce from abroad, the price of which would be unaffected by minor tinkering with the UK system); costs are more or less fixed (wages are dictated by how willing people are to do the work, again, a lot of the workers might be from abroad), and the rental value is merely an estimate of the net profit. A tax on a balancing figure, the net profit, affects neither the total income, i.e. the value of the output, nor the costs.
4) Ahem. It's not the 'land' which creates the jobs, it's some bloke (or blokess) with an idea, with ambition, with a bit of money to invest who taps into a new market and harnesses people's skills who create jobs, so reducing the tax on income and profits, however slightly, makes it more likely that jobs will be created. The land is just where all this happens.
I could rehearse the same arguments as in 1) or 2) or merely point that 'industrial and retail land' is already subject to something very similar to LVT, referred to as 'Business Rates'. Reducing taxes on incomes and increasing Business Rates (whether you call it LVT or not) on a £ for £ basis must have some mild positive effect on business activity. Worst case, an existing business is so badly run that it can no longer afford the LVT. In which case the owner decides he'd be better off shutting up shop and renting out the premises, which is guaranteed to make him a small profit for no effort whatsoever, with the added bonus that the new tenant will be running a more profitable business, creating more jobs, adding more value etc. Win win!
5) The Poor Widow Bogey, outing number 1,234,567. Exemptions, deferments, discounts, higher state pension, yawn.
6) Nope. It would be a choice between paying the tax, turning on the heating, trading down, taking in a lodger, selling up and moving in with family, rolling up the tax, asking the heirs to pay, taking out a lifetime mortgage etc. etc. There must be millions of lonely single pensioners who are shivering away in three bed 'family homes', would it be so terrible if some of them moved into blocks of flats or sheltered housing, thereby slashing their tax bills, preserving the wealth that will 'cascade down the generations', getting a bit of company and an on-site warden etc?
7) Exactly. And as all tax is ultimately a tax on incomes, why not move to a far simpler, yet sophisticated, way of taxing incomes (by taxing land values) rather than stick with a complex, yet damaging, way of taxing land values (by taxing incomes)?
8) Very much so. I'd be first on the scrap heap, but hey, our whole economy is based on lies, I just sort out the paperwork.
Interesting
51 minutes ago
22 comments:
Extortion funded TV is bad bad bad. more evil than income tax (which is the next most immoral tax).
Replace the TV tax with subscribers.
Be careful what you wish for, AC1.
Nowadays I live in Calgary, Alberta and thus no longer have to pay for a TV licence (although some proportion of my taxes goes to pay for the CBC). However I now find that I am paying more for TV and getting a poorer service than I did when I lived in the UK. There is only one cable TV provider locally available so that charges monopoly subscriber fees. 145.50 GBP buys me 12 months of TV in the UK but only 2.5 months of TV in Canada. Subscription has not made me better off. It's just changed one monopolist for another.
Sure I could do without cable and just pick up the four broadcast channels for free. Trouble with that is that all four are advertiser supported and ratings obssesed. So the programme choice is -- shall we say -- limited. And in many ways the channels are just as biased as the BBC. It's just that the opinions are slanted so as not to upset the Canadian Realtors Association instead of the UK Government. At least in the UK you will get some difference in opinion between ITV, Sky and the BBC. In Canada, CTV, Global and even the CBC (which is no longer advert-free) tend to speak with one advertiser-influenced don't-rock-the-boat voice.
So if I don't like subscription how would I finance the BBC ? Well I like the idea that advertisers pay for it. They're obviously pretty anxious to get their opinions on the air so why not? But I don't like the idea of that translating into control of the programming or agenda, which it does with the current commercial model. What I'd suggest is that the BBC's current TV licence income from viewers be replaced by income from broadcasting licences issued to all broadcasters.
This is basically the LVT/CI model applied to broadcast spectrum. Commercial broadcasters would rent out airtime to advertisers as part of their programming (as they do now) and part of that rent would then be used to fund public broadcasters producing free programming.
If that were done, then all TV would basically be advertiser funded but any channel which was designated as a public broadcaster, be it the BBC, C4, or some other broadcaster, would be free to criticise advertisers in a way which current commercial broadcasters cannot. This should lead to a similar style and standard of programming to what the UK produces now but without the extortion which the current TV licence system leads to.
In other words the witch-hunts which the TV Licensing agency carries out in the UK against those poor souls who decide that they don't want a TV would cease and the cost to the viewer would drop. And that's got to be a Good Thing.
MW re your response to #8. no you wouldn't. And neither would i come to that. That's the beauty of freedom and markets. We'd simply find another way to use our skills.
In actual fact I have spent the better part of 20 years trying to make myself redundant!
AC1, D, whether the BBC should receive taxpayers' money or not is a completely separate issue. I'm just saying, even if it does, it's better to raise it via LVT than via the licence fee.
L, my loss will be more than compensated with my children's gain, so I'm not fussed either way. In a Georgist world, they will be much better off, ergo, I can spend more money on myself and less on them, they won't need helping out with massive deposits to buy their homes, for a start.
> it's better to raise it via LVT than via the licence fee.
No, The value of television is unrelated to the value of the land it's watched on.
Subscription (with a choice of advert free, extra length programs)is the best option in the case.
I suspect it is because people do not have a clue about maths, let alone economics or equity. Duh. Well, yes obviously. But why? My contention? The education 'system' deliberately fails to teach these topics properly in order that people don't start asking too many awkward questions. It's a plot.
I see it in my world when using 'assessing client's attitude to risk' tools. Cobblers. What these do is assess client's ignorance.
AC1; "The value of television is unrelated to the value of the land it's watched on."
I never said that, but what is true is that the value of land depends (to a small part) on a) the quality of the programming and b) how good the TV reception is. It's impossible to tease out this very small part from all the other things that go into land values, so why bother?
L, it's deeper than that.
I once pointed out to an economics lecturer (very well known) that
20% x 5% x £[amount] = 1% x £[amount]
and he told me that was completely different in principle and stormed off.
A couple of issues that have been bugging me re LVT:
1) The idea that people who live in houses worth more than 7 times their income will generally lose out. This is a problem for LVTers because of the people who own their houses outright, income will not be distributed in exact relationship to value of house. Ergo you will get quite poor people (in income terms) who will lose out. And the corollary of that is that very wealthy people will gain, often massively. This means that not only do you lose the support of those losing out (obviously) you lose the support of those who gain (or are neutral) but who feel its unfair to make low income people lose out, while multimillionaires gain massively. You also lose the support of people who do not lose themselves, but can see their inheritances being eroded away by the pensioner dispensation.
2) You have 3 different principles which you mention a lot:
a) LVT is a postcode based system of tax based on house prices and square yardage,
b)LVT is an 8% tax on land values, and
c) those who living in houses that are worth more than 7 times their income would lose out.
It appears to me that (b) is not true if your system is based on (a), because the actual LVT rate for any given property could be anywhere from 5-15%. Ergo you statement in (c) cannot be correct either.
In my own example I earned nearly £100K last tax year and live in a £250k(ish) house. I would just about break even using your Swindon
valuation figures (my LVT would be c. £35K/pa). Under your '7 times income' principle only some one who earned less than £35K should lose out in a £250K house. But anyone earning £35-100K and living where I do would be out of pocket - facing 100% taxation of income at £35K!
This all says to me there will be a lot more losers than you admit, and those losers will be spread right across the income scale, not just among 'the rich'.
I do think that economics has lost it's basis in maths.
That's probably because they seem to ignore the two invariants, land and peoples time.
S: "there will be a lot more losers than you admit"
I've always guesstimated about a quarter (even if you include pensioners) would be worse off. Clearly, because incomes are far less unevenly distributed than land ownership, there will be far more winners (in numbers terms).
I agree that winners and losers will be spread up and down the income scale, I have never denied that either.
"2) You have 3 different principles which you mention a lot..."
a) Is correct.
b) Nope, I said as a ballpark, rule of thumb figure, it will be about 8% of what your home is worth. As you point out, it might be 5% for people in flats and 15% for people in cottages with huge gardens, but average 8%.
c) 'Seven' is just a rule of thumb (to show that I am not pretending there will be no losers on Day One), it might 'eleven' for people in flats or 'four' for people in cottages with huge gardens.
Please stop yapping on about 'poor' versus 'rich'. That's not what this is about. It's about 'productive economy' versus 'government protected monopoly'. It's about paying tax on what you take, not on what you make.
In any event, we can sort out low income people with the welfare system or LVT-free personal allowances (i.e. a Citizen's Income).
MW - Just to reinforce your point regarding being worse off, our house is about 8 times our earnings, so we'd be 'worse off'. Only we won't be. The massive advantage of not paying income tax would enable me to much more quickly expand my business and increase my earnings. Plus I reckon (sincerely hope?) that LVt will depree property prices, which will mean my current house price will reduce to a sane level.
Good article. Could you clarify one thing that I cannot seem to find details of anywhere - must probably looking in the wrong place - I'm helping out on some accounts for a friend - first year of trading in which they are reporting a loss - does this mean thee is no corporation tax due?
TA, there's unlikely to be a corp tax liability, depending on disallowed expenses etc, but the return still needs to be prepared and submitted.
It is well known that 50% of people don't understand percentages!
You've comprehensively debunked all those arguments against LVT from the Guardian.
Mine are more pragmatic:
1. During any major change to the tax system, the State will seize the opportunity to increase the total tax take. Look what happened to local government spending when the Community Charge/Poll Tax was introduced (regardless of your views on the merits of that tax). Since I want the size of the State reduced and not increased, I see that as a bad thing.
2. With LVT, government income would fluctuate with land values/prices. Agricultural land values might be relatively stable, but building land prices/values are highly unstable. I don't believe that LVT would prevent house price bubbles, and if it did not, the government would get a cash windfall during the bubble, ramp up its spending, and then crash back down to earth next time prices fell. At least if you're taxing incomes, there is some connection between the income of the government and the income of the rest of us.
AC:
"1. Look what happened to local government spending when the Community Charge/Poll Tax was introduced..."
I have no idea what happened to local govt spending during those years, but one thing is for certain, each time there was a change the total tax take from that source fell, i.e.
Poll Tax raised less than Dom Rates
Council Tax raised less than Poll Tax.
That is because the govt knows there have to be more winners than losers, so the new tax, in Year Two, has to raise less than the old tax did in Year One.
It is perfectly clear to me that LVT would be wildly unpopular in many quarters, so even a fundamentalist like me would have to reduce other taxes by £1 for every 70p I intended to raise in LVT.
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"2. With LVT, government income would fluctuate with land values/prices..."
Land capital values fluctuate like stupid, that is true, however proper LVT is a tax on the rental value, which fluctuates much less strongly.
Or even if LVT were on capital values, it would be on relative capital values, so if all houses double (or all houses halve) in value, the tax on each house stays much the same.
I do also have an idea for getting rid of the MPC and instead linking M0 to the the total yearly LVT collected.
Also linking M4 (credit) to the change in LVT collection, by changing reserve requirements.
This would tend to dampen credit driven speculation (as of course would the LVT).
AC1 - Much simpler why no just repeal all legal tender laws and return to us the freedom to make our own money and leave the state with official money, but crucially AT NO FIXED EXCHANGE RATE WITH ANY PRIVATE MONEY in order to confound Gresham's Law?
Because that's very inefficient.
Just have one monopoly currency in the UK economic area and link it's volume to the amount of economic activity via the amount raised by the LVT as Ricardos law says it will.
AC! - Not really 'inefficient' - competing? I do so like competition in things. It tends to weed out the 'inefficient'.
Tends to be competition between countries that competition induced efficiency can happen.
Come on you know its because a tax on land values cannot be passed on. All other taxes can.
That is what EVERYONE aspires to or wants to keep hold of.
People do not need the language to know that intuitively. So any idiot understands it.
So this crazy world demands taxes on everything else.
Purely for reasons of protectionism.
But like monopoly there are few winners in the end.
So of course its a dream world. The Matrix. It will never fly. It never does. Crunch!
Cease the infinite evidence and move on to the remedy.
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