Monday, 4 October 2010

George Osborne: "High earners don't pay tax!"

From the BBC:

Mr Osborne said: "It's very hard to justify taxing people on much lower incomes in order to pay the child benefit to some of the better off in our society."

Oh dear. For higher earners, Child Benefit is a tax rebate. They are not being given the tax money paid by people on lower incomes, they are being given a little bit of their own income tax back. It's just administratively far simpler to do it this way than to give higher earning parents extra personal allowances for their children.

He merrily continues in the same vein:

He confirmed the cut would hit homes with a single or two high earners. But families with two parents on more modest incomes - which might add up to over £44,000 - will keep the benefit.

Isn't this more couple penalties and disincentives to marriage?

He defended this by saying his plan was "the most straightforward" option - which avoided means testing.

How is this not means testing?

In any event, while the cash cost of paying Child Benefit to higher earners is indeed £1 billion a year, as the article claims, the admin costs and fraud etc are virtually nil. Greater minds than mine have calculated that it would cost more than £1 billion in admin and hassle to somehow claw it back from higher earners. If you want higher earners to be a bit worse off, the simplest way of doing it is to reduce the threshold for higher rate tax, or even better, introduce some more bands for Council Tax (all the way up to Band Z if necessary). And so on.

23 comments:

sobers said...

Yes, but not all higher rate tax payers have children do they? Why should I pay extra tax so those higher rate tax payers with kids can keep their child benefit?

I already subsidise people's desire to procreate, I'm not paying even more.

Mark Wadsworth said...

S, like I'm saying, Ch B is like extra personal allowances.

If you are a very high earner, you'd be better off if they scrapped all personal allowances and reduced the rate of income tax a bit.

PS, weren't you a child once? By all means call for Child Benefit, Child Tax Credits, state education, healthcare for children etc. to be scrapped, but not before you have repaid everything that your parents claimed for you.

Anonymous said...

"Greater minds than mind have calculated that it would cost more than £1 billion in admin and hassle to somehow claw it back from higher earners. "
Although you don't have to be a genius to suspect this.

"Yes, but not all higher rate tax payers have children do they? Why should I pay extra tax so those higher rate tax payers with kids can keep their child benefit?

I already subsidise people's desire to procreate, I'm not paying even more."
True but any cuts in benefits/tax rises should save us money - not create more civil servant jobs.
Sadly taxes and benefits changes are not always done to make money but to look good.

Robin Smith said...

Its also anti-Cameron new-speak which is pro-family.

And wouldn't subsidy withdrawal like this lower the value of land? Also anti coalition policy.

We elected the nincompoop. Its all our fault.

Coffee later?

Mark Wadsworth said...

Anon, that's another way of putting it.

RS, Tube strike today, am at home.

Macheath said...

It's something that's been mentioned here before - many higher-rate taxpayers pay for their children's education (some making great sacrifices to do so), thereby saving the state around 4k per child per year - from your taxes, Sobers.

Losing that extra money might just make the difference, especially for families with a single high earner; look out for a sudden influx of pupils to state schools in 2013.

Roll on education vouchers!

Mark Wadsworth said...

McH, exactly. For supposedly right wing George to say this is just as laughable as the lefties who say that "Giving middle class people education vouchers is the wrong way to spend taxpayers' money".

View from the Solent said...

The Mash puts it succinctly

Scott Wright said...

"For supposedly right wing George to say this is just as laughable as the lefties who say that "Giving middle class people education vouchers is the wrong way to spend taxpayers' money"."

Of course the loony lefties will spout nonsense about subsidising private schools & educational inequalities because "poor" families can't afford the topup from the voucher amount to private school fees.

What it would actually do is cause SMALLER CLASS SIZES IN STATE SCHOOLS!! Which is a good thing for improving the quality of education in those schools.

Anonymous said...

"When we are asking so much of so many people across society, I think it is a fair measure,” Mr Osborne said. “It’s just not fair to ask someone who’s on £15 or £20,000 a year to be paying for the child benefit of someone who’s on £50,000 or even more. "

this is the real nonsense, the idea that someone earning £15k is paying net tax, let alone providing subsidy for anyone else!

Scott Wright said...

blackraven999 said...

"When we are asking so much of so many people across society, I think it is a fair measure,” Mr Osborne said. “It’s just not fair to ask someone who’s on £15 or £20,000 a year to be paying for the child benefit of someone who’s on £50,000 or even more. "

this is the real nonsense, the idea that someone earning £15k is paying net tax, let alone providing subsidy for anyone else!


Of course its a nonsense, I calculated this based on my own household income profile. On a pure income tax & NI paid less benefits received, we are net receivers of benefits. Of course there is VAT, Road Tax, TV Tax, Council Tax, Fuel Tax, Fag Tax (the missus, not I), Booze Tax, Electricity subsidy (i.e higher bills = tax) but then again we receive free education for my son and soon free nursery for my daughter so..... probably not even close to a net contributor.

sobers said...

Given I was privately educated from age 11 and have never drawn on the NHS beyond being born, I'd quite fancy a tallying up of tax paid vs services used. I'd be due a fair sum back.

AntiCitizenOne said...

IMHO just scrap Sexual Subsidies.

Make it illegal to have children you cannot afford to look after, instead of letting parents ransom their own children (pay up or the child gets harmed).

Mark Wadsworth said...

VFTS, indeed.

SW, BR, that's all music to my ears.

Sobers, I'm glad we are agreed that people should only benefit from their personal efforts and not from the existence of 'the state' or state-sponsored redistribution!

I trust you'll also agree that 'land ownership' and 'the state' are more or less synonymous and/or that without the protection and other services provided by 'the state' that 'land' would be nigh worthless and 'ownership' impossible?

Robin Smith said...

AC1

Isn't that state control at is best?

Are you a statist? I didnt realise.

Anonymous said...

Mark, agree with a land tax, but if we're looking at politically unpalatable logical tax policies I'd have;

1) Inheritence tax at a much higher rate with no threshold
2) Flat and equal tax on income, corporate profits, (no div tax), CGT of ~20%

Mark Wadsworth said...

BR, I'll agree to item 2), of course, but 1) is politically a non-starter as well, not to mention that it wouldn't raise much. Current IHT at 40% with approx. £300,000 threshold only raises £3 bn - as much as the TV licence fee.

Anonymous said...

@Mark Wadsworth
"Anon, that's another way of putting it."
Thanks I think.

Is it possible that George has costed this and found that it would get money?
And did the people who did the costing work for the IT companies who will implement the change?

Mark Wadsworth said...

Anon: "did the people who did the costing work for the IT companies who will implement the change?"

You cynic! Don't forget that the costs of the extra admin and hassle of clawing this back (which are blindingly obvious to thee or me) = the salaries of extra civil servants needed to claw it back. So no conflict of interests there either, eh?

Anonymous said...

Agree not political, however, it makes no sense that inherited income is taxed at a lower threshold than inherited wealth.

Mark Wadsworth said...

BR, in practice, the bulk of inheritance tax falls on the value of land and buildings anyway, and other forms of wealth is collateral damage.

So, in terms of suggesting something that politically has the faintest chance of 'flying', I would rather ditch inheritance tax completely and have more Council Tax bands going all the way up to Band Z.

Remember that IHT raises £3 billion and Council Tax raises £23 billion, it can't be rocket science to squeeze another £3 billion our of Council Tax.

Anonymous said...

I see your point, and agree on getting what's palatable done first.

£3bn surely thats because the threshold and allowances are so high?

just back of the envelop I'd guess taxing everything at 20% you could generate 1/70 x £205,000 x 60mm x 20% = £35bn?

Anonymous said...

£17bn still a lot more than £3bn.

I used average household wealth and then multiplied by population rather than # household, doh!