Sobers, responding to an earlier post:
... if [Land Value Tax] were implemented it would still be mainfestly unfair to swap the entire basis of taxation for income to capital (as most peoples main capital asset is their house) (1), when anyone over the age of 50 will have spent 25+ years paying income tax (2), and just at the point they have paid off their mortgages, the LVT crowd come along and say 'Sorry, we're taxing land values now, so you're going to have to pay LVT for the rest of your life on your house...(3)
1) It is incorrect to conflate the selling prices of land, 99% of which is [the location value x planning permission] with capital assets generally.
Proper capital assets - like the value of your skills and effort; your qualifications and experience; the goodwill that a business builds up; physical assets such as buildings, machines, cars, white goods etc - are created by identifiable individuals or groups of individuals, and they exist because of the free exchange of goods and services. Taxes on output and incomes reduce the incentives to creating or exploiting such assets, deprive people of their just rewards, increase the cost to the parties taking part in these exchanges etc.
Location values are there because they are there. The selling price of any plot of land (as opposed to the buildings on it) has to do with the collective efforts of society as a whole; whether that's the handy corner shop; the friendly neighbourhood; the fact that we didn't lose World War II; or any one of a zillion other things.
2) OK. Let's take somebody who is now 50 and has just paid off the mortgage. Over the last 25 years they will have paid income tax and mortgage repayments. That's all in the past, what is done is done.
But let's imagine that that over the last 25 years they had been paying Land Value Tax instead of income tax, National Insurance and VAT etc; and mortgage repayments on the bricks and mortar value alone, would they be much better or worse off? I submit that most would now be better off in net cash terms. And indeed others have had an easy ride under income tax and would now be worse off (assuming no dynamic changes). But again, what is done is done. That is all in the past.
So the question is: do today's 50 year olds want today's 25 year olds (who are struggling to 'get on the property ladder', start a family etc) to be better off or worse off in 25 years' time? Don't most 50 year olds have 25 year old children? Don't they want to have grandchildren while they're still young enough to enjoy them?
3) As to this 'the rest of your life' stuff, a 50 year old will probably be working for another ten or twenty years, so for the next ten or twenty years, the vast majority of 50 years olds would - under Land Value Tax - be better off in cash terms for the next ten or twenty years.
For retired people, including hopefully one day me and Her Indoors, we can invent all manner of exemptions, transitional provisions or relieving provisions, like simply doubling or trebling the basic state pension. I fail to see any overriding argument why old age pensions should be solely funded by taxes on the incomes of working age people (remembering that these are partly borne by pensioners in the prices they have to pay) rather than out of Land Value Tax.
Finally, Land Value Tax is not a tax on 'the house' or even 'your garden', it is a payment for 'the benefit you get from the state protecting your right to exclusive possession to a certain bit of land'.
Let's be honest about this, as awful as successive governments in the UK or any other country might have been, the existence of 'the state' is of enormous overall benefit precisely because it protects exclusive possession of land, without pretty much nothing would function. So why don't we pay the state its dues (how the state ought to spend that money is another debate) and get rid of taxes on the private and free exchange of goods and services and the income derived from the capital assets thus created?
Oh Fuck Off!
1 hour ago
8 comments:
It is incorrect to conflate the selling prices of land, 99% of which is [the location value x planning permission] with capital assets generally.
Yes but he pointed out that most people's prime asset is the house, that was all. He may have got his terminology wrong and conflated different terms but the bottom line is that they'd lose again, having already lost by paying income tax all those years.
JH, but people have already lost by "paying income tax all those years"; and others have benefitted (yesterday's pensioners, quangista, unemployed, whoever). What's done is done, we can't unpick all this.
And people's 'prime asset' is not their house, it is their earnings potential. Over a lifetime, an average couple will earn sixty years' average income and end up with a house worth four years average income (at today's prices).
And what about the right to 'free' NHS care or state school place? The entitlement to an old age pension? The right to free speech, or protection from criminals? The fire brigade? Are these worth nothing?
Are the living standards of pensioners with no savings in a halfway decent council house that much different to those of owner-occupier pensioners with no other savings?
The other point that sobers conveniently ignored was that the tax-free payments which the houseowners should have been putting into their pension funds during all those years when income tax was in force would be paid out tax-free when the tax system was switched to LVT. So while the pensioners might lose in "double taxation" due to paying LVT on a piece of land which they had already bought using taxed income, they would gain by "zero taxation" on any income from a pension fund that they had accumulated.
Of course there's nothing guaranteeing that the losses would match the gains -- it could go either way -- but in general people with more valuable land will also have a bigger pension so gains and losses should at least be comparable.
D, that is a splendid argument. I'll add it to the list.
However, I'd quibble with this: "... paying LVT on a piece of land which they had already bought using taxed income"
That is a popular misconception which I have dealt with before. Anybody who bought more than ten or fifteen years or go didn't pay very much for the land (unless they bought in one of the shorter bubble periods, in which case, tough - but that's still long paid off).
What they were mainly paying for was the bricks and mortar, which would not be taxed by purist LVT.
"So why don't we pay the state its dues". Well, it's actually better than that isn't it? Since this is a self determining representative democracy (sort of) we would be paying ourselves, collectively, rent, for the land we, collectively, own. This must be wonderfully redistributionist (to satisfy the lefties) and wonderfully simple (to satisfy me) and best of all does away with lots of taxes that thieve time from us.
L, the land ultimately doesn't 'belong' to anybody so nobody can 'own' it, but the people in each nation-state certainly control who occupies each bit of it by respecting the laws against trespass, with the government as referee.
I'm not even sure that LVT is any more redistributionist, than the fact that a rich bloke pays a lot of money for a Ferrari and a poor bloke buys a second hand Ford. You get what you pay for. I'd call it 'compensation' more than 'redistribution'.
Quibble understood and agreed with, Mark. However I wanted to use the wording that Sobers used because I've seen this objection raised elsewhere and we all know that the words "double taxation" are pretty scary to any normal person.
So I aimed to demonstrate that even if you accept the premise of the objection in the terms that he uses, it's still not a strong objection. Of course, when your point about the change in Land Value between purchase time and retirement time is taken into account, his objection becomes even weaker.
D, that's another non-argument, the double taxation thing.
1. Income tax is always double and treble taxation, because you spend out of taxed money and the person who gets it from you pays income tax again and so on and so forth (ditto VAT, corp tax, National Insurance etc).
LVT can't possible be double taxation, because each plot of land is separate and is taxed once.
2. If we'd had LVT in place for ages and no income tax, and decided to go for income tax instead, would any massive unfairness ensue at the point of change?
3. If we'd had LVT for ages instead of income tax, then most people's tax bills would have been much the same or a bit less in most cases. So why can't we just pretend we always had it? Or are older people saying that they want future generations to be worse off?
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