I don't mean that Terry Wogan doesn't do the sarky comments any more, this is more fundamental!
When I was a lad, only proper European countries entered the Eurovision song contest, but then they went a bit mad and allowed Israel to enter.
Cue much heated debate at school about whether Israel was actually a European country or not, primarily done to wind up Collins (who was Jewish). Then the same all over again when Turkey was allowed to enter, much muttering and spluttering about whether it's a European country or not (quite clearly it isn't - it's not on the continent of Europe, and unlike Israel, doesn't even have any European inhabitants).
And so on and so forth. Every time they allowed yet another even-less-European country enter, there was much Righteous Indignation (especially if such a country won).
In the smart arse corner, then there is usually somebody who points that Eurovision is merely the name of an international television distribution network, which happens to have named the song contest after itself, and this does not imply that it is restricted to European competitors only (in the same way as the British Grand Prix is not restricted to British Formula One drivers).
But it seems that nobody can be bothered to do the curmudgeonly thing and point out that Azerbaijan is not, repeat not, a European country. It has borders with Chechnia, Georgia, Armenia and Iran, FFS. So I'll have to do it myself.
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Geek points for the first person to point out that Eurovision is the name of a television distribution network and is not meant to imply that the competition is restricted to entrants from European countries etc.
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UPDATE. Here's my personal opinion of which countries are European and which aren't. There are a few countries which I'd consider to be 'Not really Europe', the fact that they aren't Arab or Asian either is not my problem. Romania just scrapes in because it uses the Latin alphabet and is predominantly Christian. Plus, it gives us access to those strategic Black Sea ports.
UPDATE UPDATE: In the original version of my map I wrote 'Europe' rather than 'European' which led to some confusion, so I have amended it for clarity:
Only An Extrovert
4 hours ago
25 comments:
The biggest city in Turkey is in Europe, and Turks are ethnically (in terms of genetics rather than culture, natch) more or less the same as Greeks. Basically, w0gs begin at Calais, and drawing lines beyond that is a futile exercise...
The biggest Turkish city is only in Europe because the Romans built it for them. And that's like arguing that the UK is a South American country because of the Falklands. Further minus points for Turkey (or Azerbaijan) is that IT IS MUSLIM. One giveaway that you're in a European country is that it is Christian.
But where does that leave Russia, or Georgia? If you don't include the Caucasus you can't really include even far West of Russia, most of which is in Asia whichever way you slice it.
My understanding is (ie I can't be bothered to do any research) that geographers divide Asia from Europe at the Urals, which are a lot further east than people think.
CI, everybody can make up his own mind, but AFAIAC, 'Europe' goes as far east as Poland and south to Greece (even though I'm in two minds about Greece). Georgia, Ukraine and Russia are no longer Europe.
Being a generous soul, I'll include Iceland, Malta, Cyprus, Finland and the Baltic states in Europe. As they are clearly not 'Asian'.
Suggestions:
1. European-Asian Land Mass Song Contest
2. Euro-Trash-Pop Song Contest
3. Fantasy Popball Song Contest
4. Substitute/Proxy for Real Wars of Territorial and Ethnic Conflict in the Balkans and former Soviet Union Song Contest
5. National Tourist Bureaux Song Contest
6. Camp Employment Subsidy for Gay Men Song Contest
7. Songs Ranks According to Country of Origin by Amount of Seismic Activity Song Contest
What I really miss are (a) totally non-functional land-line voting communications with incomprhesibe languages and French only (b) only UK, Sweden and Ireland singing in English.
So which continent are Albania, Bosnia and Kosovo (Muslim majorities) on then Mark? And if Ukrainians are not white Europeans then what are they? Brown? You know Indian languages have more in common with English (and Russian for that matter) than Chinese, despite China being much closer geographically to India and Russia?
CB, I like 4) best.
Anon, I'll draw lines on a map for you.
"Being a generous soul, I'll include Iceland, Malta, Cyprus, Finland and the Baltic states in Europe. As they are clearly not 'Asian'."
Maltese is a semitic language, so surely they're Middle Eastern.
Hang on, you've got Moldova as "Completely not European" whereas Romania is European, even though Moldovans are basically Romanians who were annexed by Russia.
Those lines on the map are going to provide hours of pedantry.
R, yes, but Malta is really nice and there are a lot of British ex-pats out there. Point taken on that little blue bit next to Romania. Let's allocate it to Europe to really piss off the Ukrainians.
BQ, the Royal Mail's pricing policy is up to them. Clearly, splitting things up into 'Europe' and 'Rest of world' is going to lead to some hard decisions.
Mark,
I read your blog everyday (pretty much) but this is nonsense!
Whilst Malti is a semitic language structurally it has so many English/French/Italian loan words as to nt sound it. And anyway they all speak English. All education in Malta is done in English. Turkey is partly European. The Christian thing is hardly relevant seeing as most European "Christians" don't ever go to church apart from to bury great aunts and the like. Certainly Istanbul is at least as European in feel (I was there very recently) as Athens. But the Greeks aren't really Europe... Well they are the ouzo-guzzling wastrels.
I'll give you Azerbaijan. I'll even give you Russia which in a sense isn't Europe or Asia but just Russia.
The religion thing in particular is a really odd classification metric. One bound to result in oddities.
Face it Mark you're just upset that Jedward didn't win and put the tin-lid on the Irish economy.
I would, predicatbly, argue that the Yugoslav countries are (though I note you include Slovenia). From a cultural point of view excluding Greece from European culture would leave a hole. I would quite like to have Constabtinople back in Europe but only once we had "recognised" it as an "independent" country not part of Turkey, which I understand is how imperialism is carried out these days. On the other hand in Geographical terms Iceland is not part of the European land mass though it will be a continent in its own right in a 100 million years. On the other hand Russia west of the Urals and north of the Cauusus mountains is, so Georgia might scrape in. Armenia might make it being part of Christendom (& as a way to noise up the Turks), certainly Cyprus has no better claim, but Azerbaijan fails on all counts.
NickM, hang about here.
I included Malta as 'European', I've been there and it strikes me as completely European, they use the Latin alphabet, they are staunchly Catholic etc. And hats off to them for speaking such good English.
It was Ross who wanted to exclude Malta, not me!
And yes, I personally don't count Russia as Europe or Asian, it's just Russia as far as I am concerned.
NC, I include Croatia AND Slovenia, they are Christian and use the Latin alphabet (as far as can bothered researching - it's my map and I'm sticking to it).
As to Greece, such culture as they may have had is millennia ago. They are still piggy backing on the Acropolis and those old philiospher dudes we so revere, so what, those times are long gone, e.g. there are plenty of old British buildings in India, that does not make India part of Britain.
Similarly, there are bits of Belarus or Ukraine which used to count as Poland, but Poland has shuffled westwards in the same way as ancient Greek culture has just shuffled off into nowhere. I'm not going to re-draw the line to the east to include land that used to count as Poland and that is the end of that.
If French Guyana can be part of the EU, then anything goes. Chill.
AD, this is just my personal list of countries I consider to be 'European'. I don't consider the EU to be particularly European, seeing as you mention it.
E, like I say, everybody can do his own map/list, but we appear to be slap bang in the middle of Iceland, Ireland, Norway and France, all of which i consider European, that means we are European as well (or at least, Scandinavian).
If Russia is not Europe and it's not Asia, then what is it? A different continent?
JH, where did I use the expression 'continent'? I was listing the countries which I consider to be 'European'.
I'm interested that you put Romania in Europe but Bulgaria in "not really Europe". Aren't those countries very similar? (I've never been to Bulgaria though so I don't really know.)
For what it's worth, I think I would exclude both of those, but definitely include Greece in Europe, as well as the rest of what you have put in "not really Europe".
"Europe" to my mind is some combinsation of being-
(a) geographically contiguous with somewhere else in Europe (hence Israel and Western Australia are out);
(b) some sort of cultural similarity (I note that your boundary with the exception of Romania cuts out all the Orthodox and muslim nations); and
(c) some sort of ethnic/racial commonality (this gets messy very quickly but like it or not looks must count for something.)
To me Europe is simply everything west of the Urals & north of the caucuses. Greece and northwards is in, Turkey is out.
Mark - are you sure about the Hungarians?
The Huns were certainly Asian (where exactly being something of a mystery, Hsiung Nu/Xiongnu ancestry now being thought unlikely). The language is derived from Hunnic, so not Indo-European.
The Ukranians trace their ancestry from the Volga Vikings, at least in their own heads...
Ultimately though, I'm with John_b.
AC, if we trade Romania for Greece we lose access to the 'strategically vital Black Sea ports'.
Mark, I'll go with (b).
Jer, no I'm not not sure about anything of this, it's just my mental map.
"if we trade Romania for Greece we lose access to the 'strategically vital Black Sea ports'."
Who, pray, is "we"? the EU??!
This island home is surrounded by the strategically vital Atlantic Ocean and I'll settle for that!
AC, 'we' is just me making fun of the concept that The Black Sea is of any relevance to anything (this post has absolutely nothing to do with the EU). But Ukraine and Russia seem to take it very seriously.
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