Richard Teather (who did a fairly decent 'flat tax' manifesto in 2005) did a 'think-piece' over at the Adam Smith Institute explaining why reintroducing Schedule A taxation, to broaden the income tax base and hence enable the income tax rate to be reduced, would be a good idea. Interestingly, this proposal was already in Patrick Minford's flat tax proposal of 2006.
Arguments against were invited today.
martinwc2 chimed in with the inevitable...
Surely the main argument against a tax on homes is that cash is demanded when there is no underlying cash flow? E.g. income tax arises upon cash income, even with capital gains tax, it falls due after a realisation. With houses, cash is extorted and funds must be taken from elsewhere. It's utterly irresponsible to force house sales to meet tax or force borrowing, especially when values fall as well as rise..."
Richard Teather replied rather nimbly with this:
As I said, we already tax people where there is no cashflow. We tax employees on non-cash benefits (company cars, private healthcare, etc.). A property tax is very similar - the company car saves you the expense of buying your own; home ownership saves you the expense of rent. There are other examples already in our tax system of taxing non-cash income, but the "benefit in kind" tax on employees is the main one.
I gave a more detailed reply:
@ Martinwc2. You are advancing what Winston Churchill and Henry George dismissed as the "Poor Widow Bogey" over a century ago.
There are four stages to the home-onwership life-cycle. Even if the property tax were an additional tax (I'd like to see any new property tax replace Council Tax, Stamp Duty and Inheritance Tax as a start, for example, and then use it to reduce income tax rates by broadening the base), then ...
1. People saving up a deposit to buy their first home. Any property tax acts like a higher interest rate, so prices would adjust downwards and their total cost of purchasing is fixed as a certain fraction of their net income. So they can obviously afford it.
2. First time buyers, who have a mortgage debt approx equal to the value of what they have bought. As they ought to have budgeted with a possible increase in interest rates of a few per cent (depending how pessimistic they are) the sensible ones will be able to afford a 1% or 2% charge on capital values, as it's no worse than a 1% or 2% interest rate hike. This would be easily affordable if such high tax rates reduced income tax by an equal and opposite amount.
3. People who have paid off or nearly paid off their mortgage, who thus have lower mortgage repayments than those in category 2, and hence can also easily afford it (esp. if income tax rates reduced).
4. Retired people. They could simply 'roll up' the tax to be repaid on death (which is why I would always recommend getting rid of IHT as a quid pro quo - IHT only raises £3 billion, about as much as the TV licence fee, but is a particularly spiteful tax in its own right).
Now, let's try and invent a system that treats all asset classes the same. Ideally, people save up some cash to live on in retirement (as well as paying off mortgage). If they are cautious, they only spend the interest element, so on death, the nominal value of the cash = the nominal value when they first retired.
Similarly, as the long run trend in house prices is to increase in line with wages growth (about 2% faster than RPI), as long as the annual tax is less than 4% of the nominal value of the house (a very, very high rate indeed!), the nominal value of the house minus rolled up tax [on death] would still be no less than its nominal value on retirement (taking a long run average sort of view). So the annual rental value is not actually taxed at all - this is earned and consumed while you are still alive - much like interest income (glossing over the fact that interest income is and should be taxed if we are to have the broadest tax base and hence the lowest overall rate).
Dark thoughts
5 hours ago
10 comments:
"home ownership saves you the expense of rent"
This looks perilously close to the argument that the State owns everything anyway, so you might as well hand over your pocket money too.
Do you propose taxing the contents of my fridge as well? If not, why not?
As Richard Teather says, if people argue against LVT on the basis that "the state" does not own land, then surely that is an even stronger argument against income tax, yes?
People will always exchange goods and services, largely without any state involvement. Not so land - without HM Land Registry (the state) to guarantee title, land would be worthless (and before we had HMLR, we still had a legal system and title deeds that amounted to much the same thing).
And no, I do not propose taxing the contents of your fridge, as this arises from the free exchange of goods and services. Or pocket money, being the free exchange of cash for doing your homework. What makes you think that I am proposing either of these?
I thought you advocated LVT based on the unimproved land value of the property, not the current market value of the site plus improvements?
L, yes of course, but it's a question of getting from A to B, you've got to start with something simple to replace existing taxes, most of which are based on total capital values (council tax, stamp duty, capital gains tax, inheritance tax).
something simple to replace existing taxes, most of which are based on total capital values (council tax, stamp duty, capital gains tax, inheritance tax).
I am being naive - don't we need additional taxes to even start paying for what has already been spent?
Wasn't Vince's foray into LVT an addition to or did he plan on doing away with Council Tax?
Anon, Vince's 'mansion tax' was a single good idea buried under a mountain of nonsense, it was certainly an additional tax.
I am a) a simplification campaigner and b) an enthusiast of small government and much lower government spending, but I am grateful to Uncle Vince for sticking his head above the parapet on this one.
We cannot have enforceable rights to anything without involvement of the State. Ownership of land is not special in this respect.
Ownership of anything is a legal concept. It is the result of there being a law in place defining ownership and allowing it to be enforced.
The ownership of land is evidenced by a centrally-held register, whereas the ownership of almost everything else is not. That, of itself, does not make ownership of land different in substance from ownership of a car, a vase or a pot of Marmite.
"[W]ithout HM Land Registry (the state) to guarantee title, land would be worthless". Fine. But what does "guarantee" mean? It means the law recognises a certain state of affairs as giving rise to ownership. And ownership is the right to possess and use something to the exclusion of everyone else.
The following proposition is identical in form and substance to the the one I have just quoted: "Without a law of ownership of cars/vases/pots of Marmite enforceable through the courts (the state) cars/vases/pots of Marmite would be worthless."
And it is equally true.
Your car/vase/pot of Marmite is just as much yours as your land. If a dispute arises you might have to establish your ownership. An entry on the Land Registry is not conclusive in disputes about the ownership of land. Everyday there are cases in which such entries are disputed and overturned.
The State guarantees title to every piece of property. It does so through laws defining title or, to put it another way, defining ownership. Those laws take different forms but the substance is the same - if you don't own something and make a false claim to it the courts will hammer you.
There are central registers not just of land ownership but also the ownership of company shares, ships, milk quotas and goodness only knows what else. The existence of a register is a matter purely of form not substance, it really doesn't matter.
TFB: "That, of itself, does not make ownership of land different in substance from ownership of a car, a vase or a pot of Marmite."
There is a complete difference!
The value of a car, a vase or a pot of Marmite depends on the work and effort that people put into making them and how well you look after them, not on where they are! You can take any of these abroad, for example, and their value does not change much (query LHD and RHD cars).
Their value does not fall if, for example, Jaguar shut a factory. Nor does it fluctuate with exchange rates. Nor is their a NIMBY movement saying that the government should restrict the supply of cars, vases or marmite to enhance the scarcity value of those already in existence.
Finally, if your car, vase or Marmite are stolen, although the police and legal system are, theoretically, supposed to apprehend the thief, in practice they don't/can't and the chances of you getting your car, vase or Marmite back are nil.
The reason that relatively few cars are stolen is because of locks and tracking devices and so on, i.e. actual physical protection, not legal protection.
milk quotas
Yes, this one should be taxed in a similar way to LVT[1]. The same applies to any permit system that restricts by law (rather than merely by requiring an appropriate qualification) the number of suppliers or practitioners. Other examples would be patents, trademarks, copyrights, taxi permits (if the number is restricted), radio frequencies allocations, etc.
[1] Better yet, abolish quotas and the rest of CAP altogether, but that's a different debate.
Ed, my personal list of examples is very similar: from an email debate I was involved in recently:
If you put your mind to it, there are all sorts of non-land rights [that are analogous to land ownership]:
Some are fairly closely related to land, and we'd usually include them:
Landing slots at airports
G3 and radio licences
Oil drilling licences
But also
1. Patents, copyrights, design rights, registered trademarks.
2. 'Cherished' number plates (this might not make sense to Americans!)
3. Professional protection i.e. barriers to entry, for example in many English towns the number of taxi licences are restricted, so taxi licences are worth a few thousand pounds on the grey market. it's the same for licences to run a pub or a betting shop - hard to get hold of but they increase the value of the premises by £100,000s (or does this count as land value anyway?)
4. The requirement on people to use certain services provided by certain groups, whether they want to or not. Like the requirement for companies to have their accounts audited (what a waste of time that is) or like having to have an MOT on your car every year, even if it is in perfect working order (although the positive safety aspect might make this a good thing overall) or like having to pay a barrister to represent you in court but then the taxpayer subsidises barristers via legal aid.
5. Subsidies to industries with high barriers to entry, like government guarantees of bank deposits (explicit or implicit) or the fact that nuclear power stations don't have to insure themselves against the full cost of the damage they might cause (there is always a 0.000000000000001% chance that they will cause $1,000,000,000,000,000 of damage, for example)
6. The whole health insurance/medical complex in the USA.
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