tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post5613683855226275557..comments2024-03-05T10:52:24.691+00:00Comments on Mark Wadsworth: Fun Online Polls: Speed traps & EU citizens in the UKMark Wadsworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-40945913067764110982017-03-16T08:17:45.830+00:002017-03-16T08:17:45.830+00:00C and AC, thanks for extra background info.
It&#...C and AC, thanks for extra background info. <br /><br />It's all very tricky and you make very good points. <br /><br />But the poll was about establishing a general direction of travel. not the finer distinctions between "indefinite leave to remain" and "permanent residence" etc.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-34006013714466250372017-03-15T23:10:03.176+00:002017-03-15T23:10:03.176+00:00Interesting point; AFAIK, the Vienna Convention me...Interesting point; AFAIK, the Vienna Convention means that British withdrawal from the EU treaties does not, by itself, alter the status of EU citizens in the UK (and vice versa); that status change can only happen if a new treaty is agreed, or if UK law changes after we withdraw. Since Parliament is sovereign and can not be bound, then only the first option is actually meaningful, so all the talk about guaranteeing rights is only pointless wibble.<br /><br />Could be wrong though.<br /> <br />The other point about talking directly to member states; essentially, when A50 notification happens, the general thinking seems to be that we negotiate with the EU; presumably with the Commission. But the Commission are effectively only acting as agents for the remaining member states, and the CETA balls up with the Canadians shows that the Commission doesn't have the effective authority to bind those states to any agreement it might reach with the UK. And the Walloons that rejected the trade agreement aren't signatories to any of the EU treaties themselves, just a region under the Belgian national government, which is.<br /><br />So, as you point out, why bother with the Commission at all, and also, the Commission are in an extremely exposed position the moment A50 notification happens.Anomalous Cowshedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06128613687139232168noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-53438239171566855732017-03-15T17:01:15.469+00:002017-03-15T17:01:15.469+00:00@C
I bow to your greater knowledge. What I was tr...@C<br /><br />I bow to your greater knowledge. What I was trying to espouse was.... 'give the ones who are already here (before 31/12 or before the date of the referendum if you like) their current rights' and then once we leave revert to the system in place for everyone else.<br /><br />Sort of.<br /><br />My instinct is that we shouldn't f**k with people's lives... on the whole those who have come from the EU have made a contribution and should be allowed to stay. Using them as a bargaining point with EU is wrong. <br /><br />As Mark says... they can apply to become British citizens if they like which solves the problem.<br /><br />Shineyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13281261419328886986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-60022324253785985112017-03-15T15:24:14.473+00:002017-03-15T15:24:14.473+00:00Shiney-
Your proposal is more generous than the m...Shiney-<br /><br />Your proposal is more generous than the most generous possible option under existing law.<br /><br />Permanent residence is an automatic status that an EEA/EU national gets after continuously exercising EEA treaty rights in another member state for 5 years. Their non-EU family members who have accompanied them into the UK also get this status.<br /><br />If the UK leaves the EU on 31 March 2019, then everyone who arrived on 31 March 2014 or earlier, who has been working without a gap of more than 3 months, or been self-sufficient with their own health insurance, or a combination of a few other options as per the EEA treaty, will already have automatically become a permanent resident at the time of Brexit.<br /><br />The document that all the EU citizens are hastily applying for is a <i>confirmation</i> that permanent residence was automatically acquired on the 5th anniversary of arrival.<br /><br />Anyone who arrived after 31 March 2014 would therefore not have any legal right to permanent residence status under EU laws. Furthermore, I would say that anyone arriving after the referendum would have no expectation that they would be able to stay for the requisite 5 years (with a grace period, since very few people wake up and suddenly decide to move to another country that day).<br /><br />Permanent residence status is different to Indefinite Leave to Remain which is a UK status.<br /><br />Once we leave the EU, permanent resident status will no longer exist, and technically all permanent residents could be removed the next day.<br /><br />However, the current plan appears to be that existing EU laws will become British laws upon leaving, with selective repeal afterwards.<br /><br />The UK already has a functioning immigration system (albeit skewed towards wealthy people and people in London) and EU citizens could easily be made to apply under those rules after the date of Brexit.Curtishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10289346865017922952noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-11948636345232487562017-03-15T14:15:13.303+00:002017-03-15T14:15:13.303+00:00My vote was "all get permanent residence visa...My vote was "all get permanent residence visas automatically"... with a cut off date - say 31st Dec 2016 to stop an inward rush to beat a deadline. <br /><br />Everybody else who comes between now and UK leaving needs a visa/work permit after we leave.<br /><br />Citizens Income solves the 'public purse' argument - they aren't citizens so they don't get benefits. They can apply if they want.Shineyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13281261419328886986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-9266201507611415612017-03-15T13:11:29.204+00:002017-03-15T13:11:29.204+00:00My suggestion is make sure it's 120 kph next t...My suggestion is make sure it's 120 kph next time.James Highamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14525082702330365464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-90514932043210184812017-03-15T12:33:19.408+00:002017-03-15T12:33:19.408+00:00Sadly we can't deport UK citizens with their h...Sadly we can't deport UK citizens with their hand in the public purse - although workfare might help there.L fairfaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12274756119129254373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-54917428166045575382017-03-15T12:31:57.195+00:002017-03-15T12:31:57.195+00:00@ L fairfax
Not just EU citizens surely?
When ar...@ L fairfax<br /><br />Not just EU citizens surely?<br /><br />When are we planning to hold a referendum to do something about the rest?<br /><br />benjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11544297406005346095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-51386901845729001452017-03-15T11:09:11.210+00:002017-03-15T11:09:11.210+00:00Agreed- need an option that allows people to stay ...Agreed- need an option that allows people to stay without access to public purseThomasBHallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08998362261169422976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-63698746289869315532017-03-15T11:05:58.410+00:002017-03-15T11:05:58.410+00:00Can you add "be allowed to stay if they don&#...Can you add "be allowed to stay if they don't cost us anything & the EU agrees the same for our citizens".<br />My dislike of the EU started when I saw EU citizens being given housing that I couldn't afford.L fairfaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12274756119129254373noreply@blogger.com