tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post3344087361415250617..comments2024-03-05T10:52:24.691+00:00Comments on Mark Wadsworth: Killer Arguments Against Citizen's Income, Not (5)Mark Wadsworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comBlogger27125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-58415104916581543622017-01-20T18:32:16.885+00:002017-01-20T18:32:16.885+00:00LF and L, yes, "snowflake" originally re...LF and L, yes, "snowflake" originally referred to people who take offence vicariously on behalf of people who weren't offended in the first place etc, load of wankers, but that's just a vocal 1% of 1% of the population and not representative of any particular age group.<br /><br />In the meantime, the commenters and hacks at the Mailexpressgraph, not to mention Twitter, are gradually applying it to anybody under 40 who complains justifiably about anything e.g. high rents and high house prices and student debts "They waste it all on avocado toast and iPads" is the stock response. Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-9252996609390961582017-01-20T10:10:40.959+00:002017-01-20T10:10:40.959+00:00MW. Oh now. Come come. 'Snowflakery' is o...MW. Oh now. Come come. 'Snowflakery' is only tangentially about not being able to buy a house: in the UK. Snowflakes are everywhere in the world. Look up the urban dictionary definitions. <br /><br />Personally I think it refers to those who have been 'educated' that everyone should have prizes...Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-32602343441988069622017-01-20T08:52:38.371+00:002017-01-20T08:52:38.371+00:00I thought that snowflakes were those who go crazy ...I thought that snowflakes were those who go crazy because of Brexit,Trump, UKIP etc - Although the snowflakes I know have got houses and don't care about those who are priced out.L fairfaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12274756119129254373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-37765023400067528692017-01-20T08:50:18.087+00:002017-01-20T08:50:18.087+00:00B, that's why the mail express graph is invent...B, that's why the mail express graph is inventing a new hate group, the snowflakes, which means everybody who has been deliberately priced out of buying a house.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-84070627345630958122017-01-20T08:33:19.383+00:002017-01-20T08:33:19.383+00:00"Pol's like the system as is because they..."Pol's like the system as is because they have an easy hate group to blame everything on."<br /><br />Brexit + UBI and the tory* pols would be struggling, having lost their three major hate groups: those on the dole, benefit fraudsters and immigrants.<br /><br />* I'm not sure if this is my neologism, but I suggest small "t" tory as meaning Tory or Blairite. Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-51172634406363853632017-01-20T08:19:41.577+00:002017-01-20T08:19:41.577+00:00LF, there's nothing that can't be messed u...LF, there's nothing that can't be messed up. <br /><br />It's the overall principle and general direction of travel though, if people understand flat tax + UBI = better that means testing and all the different rates of taxed; taxes on land better than taxes on earnings; taxes on transactions like VAT or SDLT are the worst taxes etc.<br /><br />I would be grateful for any steps towards UBI, flat tax or LVT or away from transaction taxes like VAT or SDLT.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-72423814087867910362017-01-20T07:48:00.297+00:002017-01-20T07:48:00.297+00:00I am concerned that no politician will have the di...I am concerned that no politician will have the discipline to keep a UBI universal and will not add a few pounds here and there.<br />I hope I am wrong.L fairfaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12274756119129254373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-18279453947247520262017-01-19T22:17:49.889+00:002017-01-19T22:17:49.889+00:00S: can you clarify this point please:
"Its i...S: can you clarify this point please:<br /><br /><i>"Its impossible to replace a complex means and need tested welfare system with a simple UBI system, even a gradated one, without either there being many losers (which is politically unacceptable) "</i><br /><br />Can you firm up on "many losers"? In percent of population? Fact is, under the original 2013 CIT proposal, the number of "losers" is about one-tenth of existing welfare claimants and the bulk of those "losers" would be single mothers. The CIT thinks this is a problem, I don't.<br /><br />Or is this some fact free rant, like the objection to LVT that "many households would pay more tax", well it's a few percent of the population, but a few percent of 27 million households is still one or two million. Is that "many" or "a few"?Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-58844438405628985442017-01-19T22:13:30.813+00:002017-01-19T22:13:30.813+00:00S, you are contradicting yourself and missing the ...S, you are contradicting yourself and missing the point. "Universal" just means "universal" so everybody gets it. It's like the right to vote, get treated on the NHS or use the local library.<br /><br />If you want to have a low level UBI and extras on top, that's fine. Whether those extras are extra for disability, for housing costs, for old age or anything else is irrelevant. Everybody runs the risk of becoming disabled, homeless or becoming old, so those are still universal entitlements. Like the NHS, everybody has the right to certain services for free or low cost, even if the lucky majority seldom do.<br /><br />IMHO, the more stuff you can replace with UBI i.e. higher UBI and no more IB, or no more Housing Benefit, the better, but that is implementation and not principle. There is a sliding scale of how much gets replaced with UBI. In extremis, we shut down NHS and state schools and people pay for private insurance (which I don't agree with - look at the USA) or give every parent education vouchers (which I do agree with).<br /><br />DBC, yes. <br /><br />B, ta for back up.<br /><br />D, correct, the higher taxes are matched with higher UBI. Basic maths, but some people don't do maths.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-51881893405108910402017-01-19T21:22:04.442+00:002017-01-19T21:22:04.442+00:00The UBI can be viewed as welfare, which is what it...The UBI can be viewed as welfare, which is what it is for a some of the population. Or it can be viewed as a tax cut, which is what it is for most of the population. <br /><br />I thought the Mises.org site was supposed to be in favour of tax cuts? Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296053477905542366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-55628083335537326652017-01-19T20:30:47.391+00:002017-01-19T20:30:47.391+00:00"Its impossible to replace a complex means an..."Its impossible to replace a complex means and need tested welfare system with a simple UBI system, even a gradated one,"<br /><br />Agreed, that is why no-one is suggesting it (apart from you) even to use as a straw man. You appear to be missing the point of UBI. It is universal because everyone gets it, not because it replaces all other welfare payments. "Universal" in "Universal Credit" uses a different meaning of universal. To be truly universal in the way you are suggesting, it would have to replace the state pension as well, which is obviously a nonsense. Thus it is perfectly possible to have UBI plus disability benefit or housing benefit or any other benefit that benefits only a small proportion of the population. Housing benefit is a nonsense, but that is a completely different argument.<br /><br />Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-52903121823397532852017-01-19T20:19:49.744+00:002017-01-19T20:19:49.744+00:00Strange how we bemoan the demise of the Land Tax t...Strange how we bemoan the demise of the Land Tax tradition but never consider the Social Credit movement. 1984 is Orwell's explanation of how the nations of the world can be kept at full productive capacity before destroying the products again through endless warfare.The SoCred argument that you would have to distribute spending power to the unemployed to buy the products of Robot Factories via the State taking over/back the power to create credit from the banks becomes increasingly blinking bleedin' obvious.DBC Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891849727783879145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-41181724368746356852017-01-19T19:37:08.583+00:002017-01-19T19:37:08.583+00:00"IB is £20 a week more than IS"
No it i..."IB is £20 a week more than IS"<br /><br />No it isn't, there's all sorts of gradations depending on how incapacitated you are. It couldn't be replaced by a flat rate extra payment without many losing out. And surely once you stop UBI being U, its no longer a UBI. You've got a needs based welfare system again, with all the problems that brings. Plus an immediate place for tinkering to start - once you've conceded the principle of universality, its going to be hard to stop the next step 'Single mothers should get higher UBI!' 'Pensioners should get higher UBI!' etc etc. Every hard case will call for more UBI for their specific issue, and before you know where you are you're back at square one, except the who thing costs a lot more because now everyone gets something.<br /><br />Its impossible to replace a complex means and need tested welfare system with a simple UBI system, even a gradated one, without either there being many losers (which is politically unacceptable) or it being so generous that no one loses out, in which case its unaffordable. Sobershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407417389022146963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-9759384621089159852017-01-19T18:27:26.394+00:002017-01-19T18:27:26.394+00:00Din, you can make up your own rules. To my mind, a...Din, you can make up your own rules. To my mind, a nice starter UBI would be the same as income support etc £73.10 a week per UK resident British citizen, no questions asked, no rules whatsoever. <br /><br />S, yes, IB is £20 a week more than IS, so what? In the CI calculations we assumed that those entitled to IB would get another £20 on top of their CI. Who should qualify for IB and disability benefits and how much they should be are medical questions, not economic ones.<br /><br />As to the transition, that can be done gradually over five years, step by step, it's no big deal. It's Housing benefit that's the really big problem and the big distortion.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-54813523648934110162017-01-19T18:00:50.407+00:002017-01-19T18:00:50.407+00:00You also have to factor in the interplay between t...You also have to factor in the interplay between the UBI and the disability benefit system - if DB remains and is not replaced by UBI there is still a massive incentive to game the system by getting yourself 'on the sick'. If on the other hand DB is replaced with UBI its almost guaranteed that many people will lose income as a result. <br /><br />Basically having thought about it, I think there is a reason wealthy countries don't have UBIs - namely that welfare starts out as means and needs tested, because thats all a country can afford, to give something to the very poorest and neediest. This system then grows as the country gets wealthier, until one reaches the position where the country is wealthier enough to afford a viable UBI. However at that point the means and needs tested benefits often will provide a better living for those that qualify than the UBI could. Ergo its politically impossible to move from one to the other without significant numbers of losers, or reforming the UBI in ways that effectively make it no longer a UBI. Hence why no wealthy countries have ever made the switch. Sobershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407417389022146963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-80445586133557028772017-01-19T14:12:42.104+00:002017-01-19T14:12:42.104+00:00To carify -
In principle , if the man feature of U...To carify -<br />In principle , if the man feature of UBI is that it is a payment that is not removed when work is taken then the the stipulations on receiving Unemployment benefit while unemployed could also appply to UBI while unemployed. The main feature of UBI in your post is that it is not withdrawn when work is taken.Dinerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14632385731642361211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-4380923338481686932017-01-19T13:27:01.667+00:002017-01-19T13:27:01.667+00:00LK, good article.LK, good article.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-39015597333229820332017-01-19T13:19:00.949+00:002017-01-19T13:19:00.949+00:00L, ta.
D, not clear.L, ta.<br /><br />D, not clear.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-27547396880324527262017-01-19T13:18:27.754+00:002017-01-19T13:18:27.754+00:00S, correct. The few who would lose out are mainly ...S, correct. The few who would lose out are mainly single mothers. Whether that's an argument for or against ubi is up to you.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-68391923575813691052017-01-19T12:47:16.434+00:002017-01-19T12:47:16.434+00:00I was directed here by a comment on the Mises arti...I was directed here by a comment on the Mises article<br /><br />We seem to have fundamentally pretty similar views on the issue, and this is a great article. I wrote something similar on my own blog which is, as yet a few days old (Here: https://theradicalcentre.wordpress.com/2017/01/19/on-mises-the-dangers-of-a-universal-basic-income/ if you want it).<br /><br />I'm fairly delighted to learn that I'm not the sole person with this kind of viewpoint in the UK. Keep it up!GWF Hayekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01231637891739799848noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-22421475775211400802017-01-19T12:26:21.927+00:002017-01-19T12:26:21.927+00:00" Incentives to work "
IF the only diffe..." Incentives to work "<br />IF the only difference between UBI and the current system is that is that the payment is not reomved when someone takes work then there is no inherant reason that the treatment and status of unemployment is different from what it is in the current system. Dinerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14632385731642361211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-48793589838896357252017-01-19T10:41:41.660+00:002017-01-19T10:41:41.660+00:00MW. well done. Cross posted link to this article ...MW. well done. Cross posted link to this article on the Mises.org comments. Let's see what that does?Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-83440638145025698482017-01-19T09:51:31.201+00:002017-01-19T09:51:31.201+00:00Can someone address my problem with a UBI, or rath...Can someone address my problem with a UBI, or rather the reason why I think one could never be introduced?<br /><br />Firstly I'd say that I'm in favour of a UBI over the current benefit system, however as I see it the main sticking point for any UBI is the current system already gives many people more than the UBI would, and therefore it is politically impossible (regardless of cost/practicality etc) to introduce a system that results in current benefit claimants losing income. Effectively a UBI would be benefit cut for many, and as such is a political no go zone. <br /><br />Do you accept this point (there would be many losers under a UBI vs now), and if so how would you propose to get round it?<br /><br />I think a UBI is like the man asking directions to get to Cork, only to be told - Well I wouldn't start from here. Starting a UBI from scratch would work fine, shifting from a means tested system to a universal one just can't be done, in political terms.Sobershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11407417389022146963noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-33352944336213714662017-01-19T08:26:33.746+00:002017-01-19T08:26:33.746+00:00TBH, probably.
B, yes, that does play a large pa...TBH, probably. <br /><br />B, yes, that does play a large part in it. Like state pensioners who boast about not claiming benefits. Pol's like the system as is because they have an easy hate group to blame everything on. <br /><br />LF, ta.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-39896487156815434262017-01-19T08:21:37.425+00:002017-01-19T08:21:37.425+00:00I am not 100% sure that UBI is a good idea, but ev...I am not 100% sure that UBI is a good idea, but even I think that this<br />"First, UBI does not eliminate the disincentives to work that are inherent in welfare programs...<br />"<br />is rubbish.L fairfaxhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12274756119129254373noreply@blogger.com