tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post2299811074721855839..comments2024-03-05T10:52:24.691+00:00Comments on Mark Wadsworth: "Psst, we're having trouble shifting these pricey new flats..."Mark Wadsworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comBlogger76125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-91137598687106458072017-07-02T16:37:56.626+01:002017-07-02T16:37:56.626+01:00Lets be clear: you cannot say that there is no suc...Lets be clear: you cannot say that there is no such thing as "the mixed economy". Words& phrases gain validity by being used: if you type the term into Google you get thousands of references including standard dictionaries showing widespread standard usage.<br />By Lola's standards the post war British economy was stained the deepest red by its dirigiste institutions including a full roster of nationalised industries and collective bargaining by strong unions.<br />For reasons that were not commensurate with the scale of any problems, we were bumped out of that carefully balanced economy, post Macmillan, by a madwoman who stayed in power by bribing everybody out of social housing: once they were in receipt of unearned untaxed capital gains in mortgaged housing , she set about treating those in local authority housing as second class citizens until the point where their flats were no longer constructed to be fatal-fire proof.In the meantime house price inflation reached a point when in Feb 2017 Sayid Javid called a halt to the whole property owning democracy racket.So now the younger generation have missed out on State guaranteed house rises and are thoroughly pissed off because the Thacherites have also vandalised the Welfare State back-up.So the economy is ruined, right and left.<br />So much for deregulation and set-the-private-sector free (especially of all that pettifogging health-and-safety red tape).<br />Time to take a step back into the recent mixed-economy past . This is the conservative thing to do. Not all this gambling on eccentric pipe dreams.DBC Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891849727783879145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-4943341513565587972017-06-26T18:14:27.335+01:002017-06-26T18:14:27.335+01:00No I can't give an example of any financial co...No I can't give an example of any financial competent government. That's the point, or rather part of the point I am trying to make. All governments are financial incompetent. Their incentives are entirely distorted. So best have as small a one as possible. .<br /><br />So yes, socialist governments are financially incompetent and as they are Big Government they will be Bigly Incompetent. Witness all socialist governments run out of money.<br /><br />Last para. Rich Elite. Precisely. The extractive class. The history of the Common Man is one of trying to get out from under or get rid of or avoid paying money to one extractive class after another. Socialism by definition is extractive. As is rent seeking Toryism.<br /><br />Again markets and property rights (and sound money - which is a form of property right) and the Rule of Law always trend to order. It's governments and especially their bureaucrats that create chaos.Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-83853926172007112472017-06-26T17:44:56.365+01:002017-06-26T17:44:56.365+01:00"B. No. You are interpreting it as such. Most..."B. No. You are interpreting it as such. Most western governments in the world are socialist to some degree or another. As are places like China."<br /><br />Unless you can give an actual example of a financially competent, non-socialist government, we are simply back to "my utopia is better than your reality"<br /><br />Also if "Most western governments in the world are socialist to some degree or another", and if most western governments in the world are financially incompetent to some degree or another, it does not necessarily follow that all socialist governments are financially incompetent. Correlation is not causality. <br /><br />You presumably agree that there are common traits in human nature, in human economic and human political behaviour. All these traits arise from a common source, the psychological make-up of homo sapiens. However it does not mean that they are connected any more than a feeling of attraction towards pretty women or handsome men and a liking for tasty food, two other common human traits, have any discernable connection.<br /><br />In fact, having thought about it, it seems to me that the default political system is not some Hobbesian "State of Nature" chaos, nor a free market, but crony capitalism, where you have a rich elite controlling both the state and the economy and benefiting from that control. It's a sort of political Second law of Thermodynamics – The entropy (disorder) of an isolated system not in equilibrium (a political system) will tend to increase over time, approaching a maximum value at equilibrium (crony capitalism).Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-20588569115924800402017-06-26T16:02:30.284+01:002017-06-26T16:02:30.284+01:00P156. The point is that the interventions and soc...P156. The point is that the interventions and social (ism) costs have precipitated a cessation of out performance. Sweden has joined the low growth high tax high benefit model. Without those deadweight costs its relative GDP growth would have continued its trajectory and pulled them even further ahead of the rest.<br /><br />I accept that there was a degree of catch up in their numbers but the plateauing is so stark and is well correlated with the onset of high tax high spend.<br /><br />And as I pointed out in the article Swedes are starting game the system and are also providing for themselves as the State system cannot keep up.Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-12060363269342613922017-06-26T12:27:42.079+01:002017-06-26T12:27:42.079+01:00Yes they plateaud, ahead of the field, no collapse...Yes they plateaud, ahead of the field, no collapse. A bit like spurs took a 7-1 lead at Hull but then failed to add any more goals so were stuck at 7-1. Is this an indictment of their policy of all out attack earlier in the game so preventing them from accelerating away from Hull in perpetuity or just largely a matter of job done, let's coast it? <br />So do Mises think that high levels of state 'interference/spending' will cause high standards of living to plateau rather than collapse or is the collapse bit just one of those 'economic forecasts'? If so can we have some of the same please? :)paulc156https://www.blogger.com/profile/12412449043451685404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-27359418260108674782017-06-26T11:21:31.399+01:002017-06-26T11:21:31.399+01:00P156. Sweden's living relative standards have...P156. Sweden's living relative standards have plateaud since it became high tax high spend.<br /><br />If you read the Mises article you will note that Swedes are now having to deal with the inevitable arbitrary rationing and inefficiencies endemic in bureaucratic systems. Of which socialism is the prime example.Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-52022576275415271802017-06-26T11:18:22.247+01:002017-06-26T11:18:22.247+01:00B. No. You are interpreting it as such. Most west...B. No. You are interpreting it as such. Most western governments in the world are socialist to some degree or another. As are places like China. <br /><br />And Keynesianism is a version of socialism as it pre-supposes that a wise government is the answer to the 'chaos' of the market economy.<br /><br />And pretty well all those governments have a debt and money problem.<br /><br />BTW, I have never thought the USA was particularly free market.Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-63887622204458838242017-06-26T08:47:00.693+01:002017-06-26T08:47:00.693+01:00Clearly Sweden can't possibly be cited by Lola...Clearly Sweden can't possibly be cited by Lola or the uber biased people at the Mises website as an indictment against the accumulation of debts. As in any experiment even plausibly replicable one needs to isolate cause from effect. <br />How is Sweden's high tax, comprehensive welfare policies and high levels of state integration proven unsustainable or 'failed' as Lola and planet Mises claim if the Swedes have the highest living standards in the western world, the highest levels of equality in the western world, strong growth up to 2016, and pointedly not especially high levels of state debt when compared to its peers?!<br />L is conflating wish fulfilment with coherent analysis on Sweden. Like the rest of the world, its debts may come to hamper its economic and social standing but that still doesn't make any kind of case against its 'relative' outperformance of other developed economies with relatively high levels of state integration into the economy and social fabric of the nation.paulc156https://www.blogger.com/profile/12412449043451685404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-40123396295970036112017-06-26T08:19:49.597+01:002017-06-26T08:19:49.597+01:00"The current government is not not socialist...."The current government is not not socialist."<br /><br />USA too? <br /><br />"And keynesianism is equivalent to socialism - it relies on government intervention."<br /><br />Both petrol and diesel engines rely on internal combustion. That doesn't make them the same engine.<br /><br />"The Tory's are not free market classical liberals."<br /><br />Nor is any other major government in the world. You are just illustrating my point that this sort of financial mismanagement is an evil of government totally separate from the left-right divide.Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-78583754300890184762017-06-26T06:06:07.400+01:002017-06-26T06:06:07.400+01:00B. The current government is not not socialist. It...B. The current government is not not socialist. It's just as slavishly punk Keynesian as all the past ones. And keynesianism is equivalent to socialism - it relies on government intervention. The Tory's are not free market classical liberals. They will use any technique that buys them power. And Just listen to ehat May was saying before the recent election. It was very 'socialist'.Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-27916263148493981372017-06-25T22:15:23.665+01:002017-06-25T22:15:23.665+01:00B. Nailed it again. B. Nailed it again. paulc156https://www.blogger.com/profile/12412449043451685404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-75199109646173022802017-06-25T22:06:53.841+01:002017-06-25T22:06:53.841+01:00"That 'model' has only been kept goin..."That 'model' has only been kept going by printing and borrowing money."<br /><br />As is our current government, the least socialist one we've had for decades, as is the Republican government in the USA. This is financial incompetence, something perennial, but totally separate from Socialism or its alternative.<br /><br />I'm afraid your argument seems to be boiling down to "my Utopia is better than your reality".Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-79468575499598433382017-06-25T16:57:34.627+01:002017-06-25T16:57:34.627+01:00Lola's homemade definitions of major governmen...Lola's homemade definitions of major government arrangements used to be funny but are now becoming deranged.To say that there is no such thing as a mixed economy is absurd( as is the implication that Harold Macmillan was some kind of Communist for happily and productively working with nationalised industries; collective bargaining; Neddies etc).<br />If you write your own definitions, you can prove anything e.g.that you get strong and stable governments under the Conservatives.<br />If you want to use definitions quote a reference from some generally acknowledged authority; do not presume that you are one yourself.<br />Sorry to be so rude, but you are making reasoned discussion impossible.DBC Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891849727783879145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-85725950196011889422017-06-25T16:31:16.493+01:002017-06-25T16:31:16.493+01:00Yes Lola I know you said Sweden was failing/failed...Yes Lola I know you said Sweden was failing/failed but you also accepted my characterisation of Sweden as a mixed economy...until Mr Mises ruled it out.<br /><br />Seriously though, Sweden has attained a far higher level of living standards without incurring significantly more debt than other advanced economies but with significantly higher state spending/GDP and higher than average taxation. And that's AFTER post 1990's market reforms. The notion of Sweden as a failed economy is thus a bit of wish fulfilment by those ideologues over at libertarian central. paulc156https://www.blogger.com/profile/12412449043451685404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-24104175731587408232017-06-25T15:56:45.519+01:002017-06-25T15:56:45.519+01:00P156. Yes and my point was its failed/failing. Ei...P156. Yes and my point was its failed/failing. Either I didn't express myself clearly or you misread my comment. That 'model' has only been kept going by printing and borrowing money.Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-51203829271462547242017-06-25T13:52:00.915+01:002017-06-25T13:52:00.915+01:00MikeW.
It's not that scandinavian docialism is...MikeW.<br />It's not that scandinavian docialism is being destroyed. It is collapsing from its own internal failures <br />The Swedish writer on Mises isn't regretful. More resigned as to why it was all attempted in the first place.<br />Good luck with the cocktails. The argument isn't strictly parallel. Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-72925873132395666272017-06-25T13:35:56.980+01:002017-06-25T13:35:56.980+01:00Further to Sweden discussion. Even though the dire...Further to Sweden discussion. Even though the direction of travel has been more market oriented since the mid 90's and fiscally prudent balanced budgets etc it just shows how dominant the state had become by that time. Sweden today has got Gov expend' of over 50% of GDP (Denmark and Finland have even higher) and a high tax 'burden' to go with it. It's got a comprehensive welfare state and yet...despite all that has the highest living standards in the world. And if it weren't for its recent influx from the mid East would be the most socially cohesive of states. I doubt many Swedes would want to alter economic balance including government footprint from the lofty heights they currently occupy.paulc156https://www.blogger.com/profile/12412449043451685404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-84690024538271413442017-06-25T13:20:51.028+01:002017-06-25T13:20:51.028+01:00Lola. Re your comment "no such thing as a mix...Lola. Re your comment "no such thing as a mixed economy" is in direct contradiction with your own (not Von Mises) response to my comment yesterday:<br />"L. Your description of above referring to crony corporatist bureaucratic, redistributive...socialist overlay...is a rather long winded way of saying, 'MIXED ECONOMY' and as I said earlier, it characterises pretty much the whole of the advanced economies of the post war era (OECD)."<br /><br />Your response to the above (para 1) at 10:02am yesterday:<br />"Para 1. Correct. And its failing / failed." L.<br /><br />Von Mises can speak for himself.<br />paulc156https://www.blogger.com/profile/12412449043451685404noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-38675773594890219332017-06-25T11:01:00.893+01:002017-06-25T11:01:00.893+01:00Bayard, re Sweden,
When I was a young man, and ar...Bayard, re Sweden,<br /><br />When I was a young man, and arguing against the Thatcher revolutionaries around 1983. The most common answer I got was, 'Well fuck off to Russia if you like Socialism so much'.My own family was always rather hash! I always explained that I meant Scandnavia. I got my wish, I have travelled widely in Denmark to a lesser degree in Sweden. I have many Danish friends and family, some insight, but was never really able to pin it down and explain, in the broad, why the Swedes and the Danes where able to build, 'as-good-as-it- gets societies' from 1945-1985. But I do know how they are being destroyed! But this thread is hardly the place. <br /><br />Lola, surely a fair reading of your own Von Mises link says that it is the very opposite of what you assert. They are arguing, as ever, that the failure of implimented state planning is to be lamented, same old, same old, etc, etc. <br /><br />Anyway, I have found use for your latest gambit. I have explained to Mrs W, with Mises/Lola like confidence, that there is no such thing as a 'mixed cocktail' - and I expect my household budget to benefit greatly in the coming year. :)MikeWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15455583313857077618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-27166411642523548912017-06-25T08:23:27.939+01:002017-06-25T08:23:27.939+01:00I meant also to comment that there is no such thin...I meant also to comment that there is no such thing as a 'mixed economy'. In the same way as it is not possible to be a little bit pregnant.<br /><br />See here:-<br /><br />https://mises.org/library/myths-mixed-economyLolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-81634024534686379512017-06-24T22:21:07.410+01:002017-06-24T22:21:07.410+01:00More Sweden
https://mises.org/library/market-taki...More Sweden<br /><br />https://mises.org/library/market-taking-over-sweden%E2%80%99s-health-careLolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-62088710325487894772017-06-24T22:14:08.513+01:002017-06-24T22:14:08.513+01:00Sweden
https://mises.org/library/how-welfare-stat...Sweden<br /><br />https://mises.org/library/how-welfare-state-corrupted-swedenLolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-10693999245008704832017-06-24T16:59:33.896+01:002017-06-24T16:59:33.896+01:00Found this...
http://eh.net/?s=Modern+Economic+Gr...Found this...<br /><br />http://eh.net/?s=Modern+Economic+Growth%3A+Rate<br /><br />have not been able to read all of it yet....Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-68092736230022733912017-06-24T16:55:10.704+01:002017-06-24T16:55:10.704+01:00P156. No such thing as free. It just means someone...P156. No such thing as free. It just means someone else is paying. And since the 'socialisation of the Swedish economy their relative GDP growth rate has plateaued - from the mid 70's roughly.<br /><br />Yes, you can decide that the gummint collects all this wealth and doles it out again or you can decide not to do that and people can sort themselves out and charities can look after the unfortunate and the feckless. And best to combine all that with CI / LVT.<br /><br />By being high tax high spend the fundamental liberty of Swedes is compromised.<br /><br />BTW I have raced against some Swedes. They are great and mad buggers. One of them has an excellent income from owning a slew of effectively buy to let flats...:-) Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-75158665883942505392017-06-24T16:12:05.816+01:002017-06-24T16:12:05.816+01:00L.Re Sweden, here we come back to definitions and ...L.Re Sweden, here we come back to definitions and their slipperiness. There is a vibrant business environment in Sweden for sure but it's probably one of the most highly regulated economies in the world. <br />Just took this from a socialist website which doesn't describe Sweden as socialist but rather social democratic and capitalist. <br /><br />"The unionization rate is extremely high--more than 85 percent of the workforce enjoys the benefits of union organization and collective bargaining. Indeed, compared to the U.S., the Swedish labor movement is, across the board, much stronger, better organized and united.<br /><br />This strength is the key reason why Swedish workers were able to force the passage of ambitious reforms that benefit the working class as a whole. They include: free medical care coverage for all from cradle to grave; free tuition for university students; guaranteed free housing for all; subsidized child care; paid parental leave (13 month leave at 80 percent pay); extensive unemployment benefits (including cash transfers as well as job training and retraining programs); generous pensions; provision for the disabled; and care for the elderly."<br /><br />One of/or the least unequal economies. For all the world that shopping list to envy (arguably) sure as hell comes close to "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" capitalist or not. <br />The bit about worker empowerment in my last post has been much in evidence in Sweden :)<br /><br />MikeW. Particularly agree with this in your remarks directed at Bayard:<br /> "Socialism is still a better option than the only alternative on offer these days, which appears to be naked greed, corruption and thievery." B.<br /><br />MikeW. "Agreed.I think you are correct to look at the religious underpinning of Anti-Marxist, Union, English, Labour party, Christian, Socialism. Notice Lola points to the Old Testiment stone above. But in the new, I recall, Christ performed the miracle on the mount. He did not say:'fuck off and feed yourselves and die, if you cannot compete in the rigged, croney, Tory market my children!"paulc156https://www.blogger.com/profile/12412449043451685404noreply@blogger.com