tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post8595193347537407196..comments2024-03-05T10:52:24.691+00:00Comments on Mark Wadsworth: Amazon Workers face 'hard work'Mark Wadsworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-49373491197524842922013-11-27T16:53:13.138+00:002013-11-27T16:53:13.138+00:00TS. "The auditors were concerned" [other...TS. "The auditors were concerned" [otherwise known as blame the state redux]<br /><br />I prefer 'the auditors were clueless' or maybe 'the auditors were just being their usual lickspittle selves for their client banks'. <br /><br />"we conclude that the complacency of bank auditors was a significant contributory factor.[to the crash] Either they were culpably unaware of the mounting dangers, or, if they were aware of them, they equally culpably failed to alert the supervisory authority of their concerns." ...<br /><br />" We do not accept the defence that bank auditors did all that was required of them."<br /><br /><br />http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld201011/ldselect/ldeconaf/119/11902.htmAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-46511117541885857322013-11-27T13:02:33.605+00:002013-11-27T13:02:33.605+00:00paulc,
"All the accounts signed off by audit...paulc,<br /><br />"All the accounts signed off by auditors and all".<br /><br />The auditors were concerned. So, they went to HM government and asked if the government would step in if they went tits up and the government said yes. At which point the auditors could rightly sign off that they were a going concern.Tim Almondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13369256383976094670noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-24706491338639815542013-11-27T11:19:23.827+00:002013-11-27T11:19:23.827+00:00Yeh and your evidence is their statement of accoun...Yeh and your evidence is their statement of accounts. Aw-shucks. How did that work for the banks back in 2007/8. All the accounts signed off by auditors and all? Mine's got something to do with fixing a brass plate to a building in Luxembourg and creating the fiction that their business is conducted from there and not here where Amazon have about twenty times as many employees and a million times as many customers. Go figure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-92209954762897357042013-11-27T00:06:49.987+00:002013-11-27T00:06:49.987+00:00paul
EVIDENCEpaul<br /><br />EVIDENCEGraemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11007306140530173428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-25714264988507753712013-11-26T22:00:39.048+00:002013-11-26T22:00:39.048+00:00@Graeme "the simplest explanation"
...f...@Graeme "the simplest explanation"<br /><br />...for simplest read expedient.<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-15406598323603822392013-11-26T21:30:46.965+00:002013-11-26T21:30:46.965+00:00Anyway, aside from the tax-non-issue. I´ve been re...Anyway, aside from the tax-non-issue. I´ve been reading a bit about experiences in the US, from one of the warehouses. And I´ll give you as much as that it does seem rather unpalatable if we are to take it at face value.<br />What a lot of this comes down to, which is a reason why I think Amazon warehouses is not well received as a place of work, is because they are americans, and they seem to have a knack of treating their employees like shit, which they may transport with them. I don´t know if there´s stricly economic explanations for this, or cultural, but MW has touched on it before. They will happily ignore basic decency, safety, and sometimes even the bottom line, for marginal returns or show of power.<br />So while the description of the jobs from Panorama, doesn´t really look that bad. It might be entirely true that there is more to the story that makes the situation on the floor worse than meets the eye.<br /><br />http://www.mcall.com/news/local/mc-allentown-amazon-complaints-20110917,0,7937001,full.storyKjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530243002915410700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-1756674033545946192013-11-26T20:36:40.496+00:002013-11-26T20:36:40.496+00:00PC, OK, let's take that article at face value ...PC, OK, let's take that article at face value and assume that they've underpaid corporation tax by £1 billion over the last ten years, that's £0.1 billion a year.<br /><br />Against a turnover of £50 billion a year, a lot which goes in VAT, Business Rates (or their foreign equivalents), is paid in wages (liable to PAYE) or to suppliers (who themselves pay taxes), that is precisely bugger all. <br /><br />That's like the difference between 20% VAT and 20.1% VAT or something. That's like an employee nicking pencils from the stationery cupboard or throwing a sickie once a year.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-19806731822656726372013-11-26T19:47:54.691+00:002013-11-26T19:47:54.691+00:00paulc - the simplest explanation is that the job o...paulc - the simplest explanation is that the job of taxing authorities is to get their hands on as much tax as they can, regardless of economic reality. Repeat after me, Amazon does not generate profits and nor does it generate cashflow.Graemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11007306140530173428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-62996465919814226902013-11-26T19:04:41.110+00:002013-11-26T19:04:41.110+00:00B, look out, he's behind you.B, look out, he's behind you.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-2703294935081940092013-11-26T16:50:13.581+00:002013-11-26T16:50:13.581+00:00@Graaeme. Yes nice article. Wonder why there's...@Graaeme. Yes nice article. Wonder why there's an EU investigation a pending... and a claim for over a $1bn back taxes in the US... oh look here's another article from reuters all about abusive transfer pricing at amazon explaining just how they might be expected to have paid a whole lot more tax than their headline profit/loss figures suggest.<br />http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/06/us-tax-amazon-idUSBRE8B50AR20121206<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-4827980390830953882013-11-26T16:26:53.568+00:002013-11-26T16:26:53.568+00:00paulc156, it is quite easy to look up amazon's...paulc156, it is quite easy to look up amazon's financial results on the internet - try this article<br /><br />http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/22/technology/sales-are-colossal-shares-are-soaring-all-amazoncom-is-missing-is-a-profit.html?_r=0<br /><br />key quote perhaps:"Amazon lost money in 2012, and analysts are anticipating another loss when the company releases its third-quarter results on Thursday"<br /><br />Perhaps you can provide an estimate of how much tax they have somehow failed to pay? You probably do have a bridge you would like to sell - but why did you buy it in the first place? Graemehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11007306140530173428noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-72122070606257983962013-11-26T16:03:28.216+00:002013-11-26T16:03:28.216+00:00"If you think that low paid workers at the be..."If you think that low paid workers at the beck and call of small operators who do not, for instance, pay a living wage or fulfil their legal obligations as employers while providing short term or zero hours contract work are not stressed then you are remarkably insensitive."<br /><br />I don't think that (try rereading my comment), so I'm not.<br /><br />"Battery hens really are the avian equivalent of someone being required to rush up and down aisles all day long"<br /><br />No they aren't. The main evil for which battery hens are famous for suffering is that of immobility, to such an extent that they have become a byword for it. So someone who is forced to be excessively mobile is about as far from being like a battery hen as it is possible to be.Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-27800432505571534362013-11-26T15:03:27.637+00:002013-11-26T15:03:27.637+00:00PaulC: who cares, and what does it have to do with...PaulC: who cares, and what does it have to do with working conditions? As I said, the whole operation globally makes a slim profit, and as MW says, even if they did, CT would be small stuff in comparison with all the other taxes they pay. Yes, they probably do locate in Luxembourg because of financial advantages, but still do not make any significant profits overall, the advantages are given out as lower prices and expansion. There´s a solution to this other than nagging about insignificant CT revenues you know, often touted around here.Kjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530243002915410700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-70342375026369357342013-11-26T14:52:15.636+00:002013-11-26T14:52:15.636+00:00@KJ
I said 'set their own taxes'.
I'm ...@KJ<br />I said 'set their own taxes'.<br />I'm saying that they should very likely have paid far more tax in the UK [and elsewhere]than they did [and probably would have done if they were a domestic business with a few hundred employees] because they chose to adopt the apparently legal pretense of selling several billions of £'s worth of goods to UK buyers with the help of several thousands of UK employees from UK depots with a tuppenny happenny operation set up in Lux'brg employing just a few hundred. An operation whose sole purpose seems to be in avoiding corp tax. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-89038163766044970902013-11-26T14:25:14.353+00:002013-11-26T14:25:14.353+00:00@B "so really it would be more accurate to sa...@B "so really it would be more accurate to say that it was almost entirely not analogous to battery hens."<br /><br />Only if you were especially pedantic. You forgot to mention amazon employees don't lay eggs. Battery hens really are the avian equivalent of someone being required to rush up and down aisles all day long whilst being asked to complete said tasks in 33 seconds like an automaton on amphetamines. 33 seconds? About as long as it takes a hen to knock one [egg] out I reckon.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-52475599624465157002013-11-26T13:56:08.019+00:002013-11-26T13:56:08.019+00:00@B
Amazon is not a small company run and owned by ...@B<br />Amazon is not a small company run and owned by one person. <br />If you think that low paid workers at the beck and call of small operators who do not, for instance, pay a living wage or fulfil their legal obligations as employers while providing short term or zero hours contract work are not stressed then you are remarkably insensitive.DBC Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891849727783879145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-33175033232791192592013-11-26T11:59:23.473+00:002013-11-26T11:59:23.473+00:00"Unskilled workers suffer as much stress as s..."Unskilled workers suffer as much stress as senior management in the UK though the latter are richly compensated.<br />As I said this is the kind of right-wing crap which is appearing on this blog all too often these days."<br /><br />Why, do you think this blog should be the preserve of left-wing crap, such as the remark above?<br /><br />It's typical of lefties that they present all businesses as being composed of large firms run by rich bosses oppressing poor workers, in a sort of Marxist time-warp. Most businesses in the UK are still small firms where the most stressed person is the boss and owner of the company. He is the one who has to worry about keeping the business going, the employees simply turn up, do a day's work and can forget about their job until they come to work again the following day and that includes the stress of the job. When you run your own company the stress is with you 24/7. I have been in both positions and I can tell you, on a stress level, I far prefer to be an employee. <br />Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-23892316926796685832013-11-26T11:39:32.672+00:002013-11-26T11:39:32.672+00:00DBC, the best guarantee of workers' rights is ...DBC, the best guarantee of workers' rights is full employment, if you don't like your job you can leave and get another one the next day. And we know how to get full employment, don't we?<br /><br />That said, there are plenty of surveys saying you get more out of your employees if you give them a bit of a free rein, maybe Amazon don't know this, or maybe Amazon are proving the theory wrong.<br /><br />And as Kj and others suggest, working in an Amazon warehouse is far from the worst job in the world, I could give you long lists of things which are a sight more stressful than that.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-69780405163371760152013-11-26T10:48:24.819+00:002013-11-26T10:48:24.819+00:00@KJ
Its not about hard work:it is about stress.Be...@KJ <br />Its not about hard work:it is about stress.Being monitored all the time to complete orders in too short a time frame is going to be stressful.<br />I have done agricultural/horticultural work with unsympathetic arsehole people looking over my shoulder and it was stressful.<br />Unskilled workers suffer as much stress as senior management in the UK though the latter are richly compensated.<br />As I said this is the kind of right-wing crap which is appearing on this blog all too often these days.You included, to a lesser degree, as you are very prone to fantasies of the minimal state where everything is sorted by market forces moderated (actually, totally negated) by LVT.DBC Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891849727783879145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-14453435201016345012013-11-26T10:36:54.062+00:002013-11-26T10:36:54.062+00:00On the tax point, I've no reason to assume tha...On the tax point, I've no reason to assume that Amazon makes big profits in the first place; even if they do, I'm not sure where they end up.<br /><br />Further, they are investing in the UK, employing people here, and thereby paying full whack Business Rates, VAT and PAYE.<br /><br />Those three taxes together makes up ten times as much as corporation tax! So even if they are somehow magically evading corporation tax, they are still paying 90% of their full tax bill.<br /><br />Further, Amazon don't just act as retailers, they also sell stuff for smaller businesses who otherwise would struggle to organise all the deliveries, so that's good - and all those businesses in turn pay tax.Mark Wadsworthhttp://markwadsworth.blogspot.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-46128227019253240602013-11-26T09:43:18.266+00:002013-11-26T09:43:18.266+00:00That´s not to say that Amazon is an angel employer...That´s not to say that Amazon is an angel employer. There are examples of pretty horrible practices popping up, predictably enough in some US facilities, and some slightly disturbing in Germany. But the Panorama story doesn´t really reveal any of that stuff.Kjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530243002915410700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-70028366309012535312013-11-26T09:08:26.064+00:002013-11-26T09:08:26.064+00:00DBC: I grew up in a farming environment, and this ...DBC: I grew up in a farming environment, and this notion that the rote work presented here is some kind of example of evil capitalist slavery in comparison makes me laugh. It´s not right-wing drivel to note that working in a warehouse, under the "pressure" of targets and having to walk, should still be acceptable work, even in the alleged "post industrial" world.<br /><br />Re transfer pricing. Read what I said. Listed companies do not transfer price away their profits. They will transfer price away their profits from subsidiaries in higher-tax countries, yes. But if Amazon, a public company listed on the NASDAQ, as a whole does not make any significant profits, it would be quite silly to claim that they utilize transfer pricing to reduce their overall profits.Kjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530243002915410700noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-16261188202887128912013-11-26T08:56:11.537+00:002013-11-26T08:56:11.537+00:00DBCR, I think you will find that all the drivel ha...DBCR, I think you will find that all the drivel has come from the left, i.e. Paul156 and yourself. No-one has actually said that anyone is lucky to have a job, or mentioned expectations, nor has anyone trotted out meaningless stereotypes, unsubstantiated accusations or wild fantasies except you two.<br /><br />This "report" is simply the government telling us who to hate again.Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-50514741121671926222013-11-26T08:44:48.692+00:002013-11-26T08:44:48.692+00:00More right-wing drivel on this site.These people a...More right-wing drivel on this site.These people are lucky to have work.They're indoors and paid ,what more do they expect? That's about the Colonel Blimp level.<br />Transfer pricing: if its so pointless why do firms do it? MW should tell us: he's the tax expert.DBC Reedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17891849727783879145noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-67744734629118302732013-11-26T06:31:42.616+00:002013-11-26T06:31:42.616+00:00Paulc: transfer pricing is usually applied to redu...Paulc: transfer pricing is usually applied to reduce tax, not corporate profit. If you are not saying that Jeff B is transfer-pricing away all the profits from the shareholders, TS is telling you the truth.<br /><br />Derek: I have no problem with these kinds of jobs, even if I´ve never been diagnosed with anything ;) It´s all those subtle things that makes it bearable; bosses and co-workers not being dicks, and some flexibility in hours/breaks, and I could definetly do this before a whole range of other crappy jobs.Kjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13530243002915410700noreply@blogger.com