tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post6248961611230252872..comments2024-03-05T10:52:24.691+00:00Comments on Mark Wadsworth: Laffer Curve of LVT Part 2Mark Wadsworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-30012190531390560672017-03-01T20:14:21.993+00:002017-03-01T20:14:21.993+00:00@ Mike W
Having mulled on the pros and cons of re...@ Mike W<br /><br />Having mulled on the pros and cons of replacing the 20% tax on all incomes with a Poll Tax/Dwelling Fee in the YPPUK tax plan, it's really not worth the effort. In theory there might be some efficiency advantages, but it would cause an a lot of damage to the fabric in our society.<br /><br />By doing it Marks way, we get to the same place eventually, only it's done in an acceptable way, if a little slower.<br /><br />Lump sum taxes are preferable to taxes on wealth creation, we've just got to work out a the best way of doing it. Marks YPPUK tax plan can't be faulted in that respect. <br /> benjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11544297406005346095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-37972154681792995492017-03-01T16:54:22.844+00:002017-03-01T16:54:22.844+00:00BJ, my concerns,
'The point being, lets say ...BJ, my concerns, <br /><br />'The point being, lets say LVT isn't enough to pay for all the services we need (I think it would). Is an LVT + Dwelling Fee better/less distortionary than LVT + Bad Taxes (VAT, Income Tax etc)?'<br /><br />Bad taxes Meaning1 = Your/our use; distortionary VAT, income tax etc<br />Bad taxes Meaning2 = General use; non progressive poll tax of any kind for any reason.<br />Taxing Bads = No relevance here<br /><br />Unless I am missing something in your thinking ,quite possible,so please say, the answer to your question is, yes this proposal is worse than LVT and a 'massively shrunken VAT, national insurance, etc'. This is not a 'purist LVT view'. Remember, we will be shrinking all these Bad taxes - M1 - as we go, year on year. Real world, Popperian implimentation of the LVT project; seeing where we are at the end of each period (normal metrics; inflation, unemployment etc), no need to worry and solve apriori in my view.MikeWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15455583313857077618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-92163979068715938322017-03-01T15:14:42.636+00:002017-03-01T15:14:42.636+00:00BJ and SV above,
'One small, minor, trivial, m...BJ and SV above,<br />'One small, minor, trivial, miniscule, tiny point here. We don't need to "oversell" LVT, it's a vastly superior system just based on it's two most compelling features - lower deadweight costs on the economy than any other taxes, and the near-impossibility of evasion. I would add a third - related to the Profs comments - the Laffer curve effects would make it very difficult for govt's to be predatory/parasitic/confiscatory with these taxes, and would therefore be nice and fair/harmonious in the social contract between government and governed sense.<br /><br />Agreed. Nice point, well put. This is what I assumed Wandsworth meant when he said to us, he could do the merits of LVT from a center,right point of view as well! A new Social Contract nails it. But once every 100 years, biblical word like 'Covenant' could be used with no blushes too.MikeWhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15455583313857077618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-55911702890515260432017-03-01T14:01:22.790+00:002017-03-01T14:01:22.790+00:00L, exactly!L, exactly!Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-46255150081228823592017-03-01T09:41:58.980+00:002017-03-01T09:41:58.980+00:00MW. So double bubble then. Banks shrink their lan...MW. So double bubble then. Banks shrink their land price speculation lending AND government gets less money to waste/spend badly. Excellent!Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-48012550017914885342017-03-01T08:25:50.535+00:002017-03-01T08:25:50.535+00:00Bj, I can see the argument that says: the local co...Bj, I can see the argument that says: the local council has a bare minimum cost associated with each home (such as maintaining roads and pavements and collecting rubbish). Even if the land value is zero, the LVT attached to the home should be at least equal to these bare minimum costs, or else it is clearly a waste of money.<br /><br />L, yes, but the bank asset tax would only bring in tens of billions in the first few years until banks shrink their balance sheets and get away from low-margin, high-risk, high-volume lending (i.e. for land price speculation). After that the receipts will be negligible (one or two per cent of tax receipts).Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-30093858774754727652017-03-01T06:49:20.969+00:002017-03-01T06:49:20.969+00:00Bj.mw. et al. Aren't we also going to have ban...Bj.mw. et al. Aren't we also going to have bank asset taxes? And i really don't like a dwelling fee. It complicates matters.Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-59015017766632670682017-02-28T20:19:51.969+00:002017-02-28T20:19:51.969+00:00@ MW
Just to clarify what I meant by Poll Tax. In...@ MW<br /><br />Just to clarify what I meant by Poll Tax. In this context a flat lump sum tax attached to a freehold title/dwelling.<br /><br />For example in your submission to the Scottish Tax Commission,the lowest tax paid is £585 and the highest £8217. Say the former is almost a location with a rental value of zero, then that is what I meant by Poll Tax. Lets call it Dwelling Fee instead.<br /><br />The highest is therefore paying £7632 LVT and £585 which together we'll call Domestic Rates.<br /><br />The point being, lets say LVT isn't enough to pay for all the services we need (I think it would). Is and LVT + Dwelling Fee better/less distortionary than LVT + Bad Taxes (VAT, Income Tax etc).<br /><br />As Prof Tideman implied, a Dwelling Fee applied to all property would lead to under consumption of land. Is that worse than taxes on output?<br /><br />Not based on anything other than my own prejudices, I'm going to say no.benjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11544297406005346095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-88179314777983147062017-02-28T18:28:57.263+00:002017-02-28T18:28:57.263+00:00Broadly agreed, except with Poll Tax bit, a Poll T...Broadly agreed, except with Poll Tax bit, a Poll Tax is incompatible with a Citizen's Income (or any sort of rational welfare system), ergo, best pitch LVT at 80% - 90%, set govt spending to match and hope for the best. If that's not enough, have a low-ish higher rate income tax.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-70787921698543398632017-02-28T17:35:45.100+00:002017-02-28T17:35:45.100+00:00Are people that mobile?Are people that mobile?James Highamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14525082702330365464noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-50812519292923714542017-02-28T17:35:12.229+00:002017-02-28T17:35:12.229+00:00@SV
The LVT purists have got things a bit wrong. ...@SV<br /><br />The LVT purists have got things a bit wrong. They start from LVT and work their way up. In the real World its best to take the amount thats being spent and work backwards. What we want is lump sum taxes, attached to freehold titles. Council Tax? Perfect. MWs submission to the Scottish Tax thingy was a brillant in this respect. Needs to be put on the right desk IMHO.<br /><br />The LVT puts a fiscal and moral ceiling on what the State can collect and spend on our behalf. Something you've have thought would have appealed to the Libertarians, but no. They hate it.benjhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11544297406005346095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-54186042034503586762017-02-28T16:48:05.931+00:002017-02-28T16:48:05.931+00:00Yes - agreed. Something like MW's "back-o...Yes - agreed. Something like MW's "back-of-the-envelope" calculations from a few months back perhaps?<br />The only political shortcoming with this it seems to me is how to scale it to become the predominant source of all taxes - given the fundamentally local nature of Council Tax. <br />Maybe Local Authorities simply kick some of their revenues upstairs to the State. Or perhaps more central spending on Healthcare/Pensions/Education/Welfare, and Infrastructure say, is devolved to LA's?<br />One small, minor, trivial, miniscule, tiny point here. We don't need to "oversell" LVT, it's a vastly superior system just based on it's two most compelling features - lower deadweight costs on the economy than any other taxes, and the near-impossibility of evasion. I would add a third - related to the Profs comments - the Laffer curve effects would make it very difficult for govt's to be predatory/parasitic/confiscatory with these taxes, and would therefore be nice and fair/harmonious in the social contract between government and governed sense.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06234426239124672535noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-86952241747514657762017-02-28T15:36:10.526+00:002017-02-28T15:36:10.526+00:00For ref of others the first part is here:
http://...For ref of others the first part is here:<br /><br />http://markwadsworth.blogspot.ca/2017/02/the-laffer-curve-of-land-value-tax.htmlBen Fhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13760806340684934435noreply@blogger.com