tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post3439794050463200105..comments2024-03-05T10:52:24.691+00:00Comments on Mark Wadsworth: Home-Owner-Ists merrily jumbling legal and economic conceptsMark Wadsworthhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-91444709407444423932013-10-19T18:01:21.313+01:002013-10-19T18:01:21.313+01:00B, I was actually agreeing with you.
But this bit...B, I was actually agreeing with you.<br /><br />But this bit confused me a bit: "Council housing may not be subsidised, "<br /><br />DId you mean "It is against the law for it to be subsidised" or "It might not be subsidised" or did you mean "It isn't subsidised"?<br /><br />I wasn't sure so I thought I'd emphasise my own understanding.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-57491458478115582952013-10-19T17:33:27.949+01:002013-10-19T17:33:27.949+01:00"B, council housing at headline rents is very..."B, council housing at headline rents is very much NOT subsidised"<br /><br />Er, didn't I just say that?<br /><br />"Housing Benefit on the other hand clearly is a subsidy, in cash terms, in economic-notional terms."<br /><br />Exactly, so when a private tenant on HB moves into a council house, there is a saving to the community, hence the prevention of that happening is the opposite to a saving, i.e. a cost.Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-85483932448284607852013-10-18T21:34:09.652+01:002013-10-18T21:34:09.652+01:00B, council housing at headline rents is very much ...B, council housing at headline rents is very much NOT subsidised, certainly not in cash terms and possibly not even in economic-notional cost terms. It "costs" the taxpayer (who owns that housing) nothing.<br /><br />Housing Benefit on the other hand clearly is a subsidy, in cash terms, in economic-notional terms.<br /><br />So if we want to minimise the cost to the taxpayer, instead of pissing £8 billion up the wall for subsidies to private landlords, let's build a load of council houses instead.<br /><br />That's my cold logical position at least.<br /><br /> But the Homeys hate council housing, full stop, and the Homey elite is of course a beneficiary of that £8 billion subsidy so they are quite happy with the LMBH status quo.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-46908312230388080092013-10-18T21:00:36.748+01:002013-10-18T21:00:36.748+01:00Council housing may not be subsidised, but there i...Council housing may not be subsidised, but there is still a cost when someone sublets a council house. This is because there is then another family that the council has to pay housing benefit to, or maintain in B&B accommodation that could be costing them nothing living in that council house.Bayardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15211150959757982948noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-62387711415487125342013-10-17T14:21:13.240+01:002013-10-17T14:21:13.240+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dinerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14632385731642361211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-47302801258832314952013-10-17T14:19:58.655+01:002013-10-17T14:19:58.655+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Dinerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14632385731642361211noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-50767475491927793532013-10-17T12:33:03.711+01:002013-10-17T12:33:03.711+01:00L, yes, but if building housing and selling it off...L, yes, but if building housing and selling it off cheap is A Good Thing, why don't we do more of it? Why not do it for everybody? <br /><br />The Homey elite hate council housing because they can't earn any money from it. That's why they constantly push this anti-social housing propaganda.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-88287397442058512112013-10-17T10:31:44.034+01:002013-10-17T10:31:44.034+01:00I think BQ was right, but wrong. I think the poin...I think BQ was right, but wrong. I think the point he was making was that it was all about jerrymandering the electorate by turning them into homeowners. Whether BQ knew that this was the point he was making is not clear.Lolahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04586735342675041312noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-15696143177663103692013-10-17T07:35:49.728+01:002013-10-17T07:35:49.728+01:00RA, yes, agreed to all that, but as D explains, Co...RA, yes, agreed to all that, but as D explains, Council Housing is NOT subsidised, you've fallen for a Homey myth there. <br /><br />Council rents slightly more than cover running costs. Housing Benefit on the other hand IS a subsidy.<br /><br />Yes, you can argue that there is an "economic subsidy" that council rents are lower than private rents, but that discount is negligible:<br /><br />Imagine - they scrap Housing Benefit and told councils they could charge as much as they liked. How high would they be able to set the rents? <br /><br />On average, they would be much lower than now. Half of council tenants would not be able to afford much more than five or ten pounds a week. That would be the "market rent".<br /><br />Even more irritatingly, the only people entitled to argue that there is an economy subsidy to council housing are Land Value Taxers, who point out that the economic subsidy to privately owned land is many times greater.<br /><br />D, ta for back up.Mark Wadsworthhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07733511175178098449noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-83806432282115896092013-10-17T01:48:21.291+01:002013-10-17T01:48:21.291+01:00Rational Anarchist wrote:
They are claiming that t...Rational Anarchist wrote:<br /><i>They are claiming that they have nowhere to live, so need subsidised housing;</i><br /><br />But council isn't subsidised, is it? It's just cheap. However its cheap rental still covers its costs. <br /><br />Consider the case of a private landlord A. He has no mortgage. He can afford to charge less than the going rate. As long as he's getting enough to cover taxes, insurance and maintenance, there's no subsidy going on. <br /><br />The council is like landlord A, except its costs are even lower because it doesn't have to pay taxes. So it can make a larger profit when charging the same rent as the equivalent private landlord.<br /><br />So no subsidy required. Council housing is just cheaper.Derekhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06296053477905542366noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1141932539860553199.post-52353961752083284622013-10-16T22:23:48.787+01:002013-10-16T22:23:48.787+01:00As far as council tenants sub-letting their houses...As far as council tenants sub-letting their houses, the main issue to me is one of fraud. They are claiming that they have nowhere to live, so need subsidised housing; then they sub-let the housing to someone else. Thus, fraudulently claiming benefits. As such, I can see why they've criminalised it.<br /><br />In an ideal world there would be a vast amount more "council housing" and the rents collected could pay for a substantial amount of the government, but our political system guarantees that such sensible solutions are not going to happen. <br /><br />Right now, Conservatives have power (kinda). If they wanted to invest large amounts of cash to build council houses, the benefits would not be realised for several years, and the next government (or the one after) would get the credit (and the extra money to spend). Whereas a policy like selling off council houses would give them more money to spend now (albeit at the cost of lower income in future years - good news, it's not likely to be their problem!)<br /><br />And this is why our particular flavour of democracy (aka popularity contest) sucks.<br /><br />(Sadly, we've yet to find anything better)Rational Anarchisthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13002966782423667010noreply@blogger.com